What's your honest opinion? [No debating allowed]

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Thank you all very much. Everyone has given me some very well spoken and deliberate comments. For that I can't thank you enough. Most of the time people seem to dance around issues, too afraid or too naive to say what they really think. Most people are even too afraid to bring up such topics for fear of rocking the boat. I for one am not one of those people. If I have a question, I am going to ask it. I am sorry if I caused anyone any trouble at all. (Spectre I thank you for moderating this thread to ensure that I got what I wanted and not a bunch of yelling :) )

Again, thank you very much everyone :) Now everyone go back to remembering that we are all friends and that we all love to scuba dive!

Amber
 
I tend to agree with these Iraqi exiles...
....................
February 26, 2003, 10:00 a.m.
Voice of Iraqis
Why don't antiwar types want to hear them?

Could I have the microphone for one minute to tell the
people about my life?" asked the Iraqi grandmother.

I spent part of a recent Saturday with the so-called
"antiwar" marchers in London in the company of some
Iraqi friends. Our aim had been to persuade the
organizers to let at least one Iraqi voice to be
heard. Soon, however, it became clear that the
organizers were as anxious to stifle the voice of the
Iraqis in exile as was Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

The Iraqis had come with placards reading "Freedom for
Iraq" and "American rule, a hundred thousand times
better than Takriti tyranny!"

But the tough guys who supervised the march would have
none of that. Only official placards, manufactured in
thousands and distributed among the "spontaneous"
marchers, were allowed. These read "Bush and Blair,
baby-killers," " Not in my name," "Freedom for
Palestine," and "Indict Bush and Sharon."

Not one placard demanded that Saddam should disarm to
avoid war.

The goons also confiscated photographs showing the
tragedy of Halabja, the Kurdish town where Saddam's
forces gassed 5,000 people to death in 1988.

We managed to reach some of the stars of the show,
including Reverend Jesse Jackson, the self-styled
champion of American civil rights. One of our group,
Salima Kazim, an Iraqi grandmother, managed to attract
the reverend's attention and told him how Saddam
Hussein had murdered her three sons because they had
been dissidents in the Baath Party; and how one of her
grandsons had died in the war Saddam had launched
against Kuwait in 1990.

"Could I have the microphone for one minute to tell
the people about my life?" 78-year-old Salima
demanded.

The reverend was not pleased.

"Today is not about Saddam Hussein," he snapped.
"Today is about Bush and Blair and the massacre they
plan in Iraq." Salima had to beat a retreat, with all
of us following, as the reverend's gorillas closed in
to protect his holiness.

We next spotted former film star Glenda Jackson,
apparently manning a stand where "antiwar" characters
could sign up to become "human shields" to protect
Saddam's military installations against American air
attacks.

"These people are mad," said Awad Nasser, one of
Iraq's most famous modernist poets. "They are actually
signing up to sacrifice their lives to protect a
tyrant's death machine."

The former film star, now a Labor party member of
parliament, had no time for "side issues" such as the
1.2 million Iraqis, Iranians, and Kuwaitis who have
died as a result of Saddam's various wars.

We thought we might have a better chance with Charles
Kennedy, a boyish-looking, red-headed Scot who leads
the misnamed Liberal Democrat party. But he, too, had
no time for "complex issues" that could not be raised
at a mass rally.

"The point of what we are doing here is to tell the
American and British governments that we are against
war," he pontificated. "There will be ample time for
other issues."

But was it not amazing that there could be a rally
about Iraq without any mention of what Saddam and his
regime have done over almost three decades? Just a
little hint, perhaps, that Saddam was still murdering
people in his Qasr al-Nayhayah (Palace of the End)
prison, and that as the Westerners marched, Iraqis
continued to die?

Not a chance.

We then ran into Tony Benn, a leftist septuagenarian
who has recycled himself as a television reporter to
interview Saddam in Baghdad.

But we knew there was no point in talking to him. The
previous night he had appeared on TV to tell the Brits
that his friend Saddam was standing for "the little
people" against "hegemonistic America."

"Are these people ignorant, or are they blinded by
hatred of the United States?" Nasser the poet
demanded.

The Iraqis would had much to tell the "antiwar"
marchers, had they had a chance to speak. Fadel
Sultani, president of the National Association of
Iraqi authors, would have told the marchers that their
action would encourage Saddam to intensify his
repression.

"I had a few questions for the marchers," Sultani
said. "Did they not realize that oppression, torture
and massacre of innocent civilians are also forms of
war? Are the antiwar marchers only against a war that
would liberate Iraq, or do they also oppose the war
Saddam has been waging against our people for a
generation?"

Sultani could have told the peaceniks how Saddam's
henchmen killed dissident poets and writers by pushing
page after page of forbidden books down their throats
until they choked.

Hashem al-Iqabi, one of Iraq's leading writers and
intellectuals, had hoped the marchers would mention
the fact that Saddam had driven almost four million
Iraqis out of their homes and razed more than 6,000
villages to the ground.

"The death and destruction caused by Saddam in our
land is the worst since Nebuchadnezzar," he said.
"These prosperous, peaceful, and fat Europeans are
marching in support of evil incarnate." He said that,
watching the march, he felt Nazism was "alive and well
and flexing its muscles in Hyde Park."

Abdel-Majid Khoi, son of the late Grand Ayatollah
Khoi, Iraq's foremost religious leader for almost 40
years, spoke of the "deep moral pain" he feels when
hearing the so-called " antiwar" discourse.

"The Iraqi nation is like a man who is kept captive
and tortured by a gang of thugs," Khoi said. "The
proper moral position is to fly to help that man
liberate himself and bring the torturers to book. But
what we witness in the West is the opposite: support
for the torturers and total contempt for the victim."

Khoi said he would say ahlan wasahlan (welcome) to
anyone who would liberate Iraq.

"When you are being tortured to death you are not
fussy about who will save you," he said.

Ismail Qaderi, a former Baathist official but now a
dissident, wanted to tell the marchers how Saddam
systematically destroyed even his own party, starting
by murdering all but one of its 16 original leaders.

"Those who see Saddam as a symbol of socialism,
progress, and secularism in the Arab world must be
mad," he said.

Khalid Kishtaini, Iraq's most famous satirical writer,
added his complaint.

"Don't these marchers know that the only march
possible in Iraq under Saddam Hussein is from the
prison to the firing-squad?" he asked. "The Western
marchers behave as if the US wanted to invade
Switzerland, not Iraq under Saddam Hussein."

With all doors shutting in our faces we decided to
drop out of the show and watch the political zoology
of the march from the sidelines.

Who were these people who felt such hatred of their
democratic governments and such intense self-loathing?

There were the usual suspects: the remnants of the
Left, from Stalinists and Trotskyites to caviar
socialists. There were the pro-abortionists, the
anti-GM food crowd, the anti-capital-punishment
militants, the black-rights gurus, the anti-Semites,
the "burn Israel" lobby, the "Bush-didn't-win-Florida"
zealots, the unilateral disarmers, the anti-Hollywood
"cultural exception" merchants, and the guilt-ridden
postmodernist "everything is equal to everything else"
philosophers.

But the bulk of the crowd consisted of fellow
travelers, those innocent citizens who, prompted by
idealism or boredom, are always prepared to play the
role of "useful idiots," as Lenin used to call them.

They ignored the fact that the peoples of Iraq are
unanimous in their prayers for the war of liberation
to come as quickly as possible.

The number of marchers did not impress Salima, the
grandmother.

"What is wrong does not become right because many
people say it," she asserted, bidding us farewell
while the marchers shouted "Not in my name!"

Let us hope that when Iraq is liberated, as it soon
will be, the world will remember that it was not done
in the name of Rev. Jackson, Charles Kennedy, Glenda
Jackson, Tony Benn, and their companions in a march of
shame.

- Amir Taheri is author of The Cauldron: The Middle
East behind the headlines. Taheri is reachable through
www.benadorassociates.com.

From National Review Online
 
Ok, here's my opinion on the situation...

I say send in the Navy Seals (or Delta Force, or CIA, or whatever) to kill Saddam Hussein and all his advisers.

Put an end to the tyranny and his punishing rule that have killed so many, and tortured so many more.

Then, once he is dead, we should take over the Oil production and get as much oil as we want!!!
 
Amber,

Your asking for different opinions to get your own is commendable. I'm sorry I could not post this sooner.

The Iraqi situation is extremely complex and I don't believe that we're talking black & white, here. When it comes to international relations, things are usually not how they look on the surface.

IMHO, the first step in forming an opinion should be to look at a map.

1. Iraq has 36 miles of coastline. That's only 1.57% of Iraq's boundaries. Why is this relevant? Well, a country's access to the seas and the oceans is an important requirement to its development. This has been the cause for a number of wars. It may also raise questions as to why the US is sending so many boats to a country that has such a small coastline.
2. Iraq's neighbors are Iran, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Turkey. Turkey and Jordan are the only two countries that have a democratic system, though their human rights record is far from stellar (http://www.amnesty.org for more). Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Syria have authoritarian regimes with little to no room for liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
3. If we zoom out a little more, we find Egypt that has been ruled by Mubarak since 1981, Lebanon that is under Syria's control, the United Arab Emirates which has yet to be reached by the concept of universal suffrage, Afghanistan (you probably know about this one), Pakistan where Musharaff took over the country after a 1999 military coup, Yemen, a "republic" ruled under Islamic Law where the president was last elected with 96.3% of the votes, Oman a monarchy, and, of course, Israel.

So, putting aside Israel, it's clear the Middle East is not governed by the people, for the people. It's also clear that the enforcement of the Human Rights Charter is not an every day preoccupation in the region. What most of the Middle East share are a common religion and various level of hostility towards Israel.

At this point, one may wonder why the emphasis is on Iraq. Yes, Saddam is a dictator, but so are most of his neighbors. Yes, he has had weapons of mass destruction, compliment of the US www.gulflink.osd.mil/medsearch/FocusAreas/riegle_report/hearing/hearing_toc.htm), but a key Iraqi defector said that they have been destroyed (www.msnbc.com/news/876128.asp?cp1=1) and so far, the only prohibited weapons found by the inspectors are exceeding by only 15 miles the authorized range. And these are being destroyed. The truth is nobody knows for sure whether Saddam still has weapons of mass destructions. Maybe, he does and they are well hidden, maybe he does not. Is that enough to justify an attack?

Probably not, that is why the US government has been also making the case that Saddam is an active supporter of Bin Laden. But there again, evidences are far from abundant or simply inexistent as shown, for instance, by the British "intelligence" fiasco (www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/07/sprj.irq.uk.dossier/index.html). On the other hand, Iran, with its large nuclear program and certain ties to Bin Laden (www.msnbc.com/news/876145.asp?0dm=-207K) could constitute a target of choice in fighting terrorism. Will it be one?

To me, and apparently, to the rest of the world, Bush has not successfully made his case that the world needs another war. Unless I take for granted what the US government has been saying, I do not see why a war against Iraq is justified more than, say, against North Korea or Libya, and even less why it needs to happen now.

In 1991, Bush Sr. built a worldwide coalition and kicked Saddam out of Kuwait, with the UN's approval. There had been a territorial aggression by Iraq. More important, there was a concern that Saudi Arabia was going to be next (though the infamous pictures the US government claimed to have as evidence have remained "secret" to date). It can be argued that the whole operation was just meant to allow allied forces to occupy the world largest oil producer, but that's another debate. In 1991, the world united against Iraq has a result of Saddam's action. The largest army in the world just had to clear 6,880 sq miles. Bush Sr. knew that he would not keep the world support beyond the Kuwaiti borders. As a result, the possibility of extending the conflict was virtually impossible. It should also be noted that Saddam miscalculated his neighbors' reaction when he invaded Kuwait in 1990. The various signals he sent prior to August 1990 did not trigger any clear indication of what the world's response would be. Saddam was left to believe that his invasion of Kuwait would probably not have more consequence than the Sudetenland's invasion by Hitler in 1938. Finally, let's not to forget that Iraq's appetite for Kuwait did not start with Saddam and may not stop with him either (for a good and simple timeline of the Middle East, see www.scaruffi.com/politics/middleea.html ).

Since the end of the Gulf War, the situation has significantly changed. The UN's containment policy over Iraq has worked. For more than 12 years, Iraq has not attacked any of its neighbors and the Kurds have enjoyed one of the longest period of peace in their history, protected from Iraq and Turkey by the UN. This is significant when considering Iraq's history. Unlike the pre-August 1990 situation, it has been very clear that any territorial aggression by Iraq would trigger an immediate reaction. And troops have been kept stationed in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait since the end of the Gulf War to enforce this policy.

In conclusion, Iraq has not attacked anyone, there is no civil war going on and the Security Council seems unlikely to pass a resolution actually authorizing a strike against Iraq. This should weaken even more Bush's "willing" allies, Blair and Aznar. Yet, the US government seems to be prepared to bet that they can rid Iraq of Saddam as they did for Kuwait, all based on the suspicion that Saddam threatens US interests. But suspicion and threat are light concepts in the face of International Law. Interestingly enough, this was the same doctrine officially used by Saddam when he invaded Kuwait...
 
Do you let it fester and eventually loose it and the adjacent teeth, and perhaps your life?

Prudence dictates that the decay is handled while it's small and manageable.

Iraq is similar to a decayed tooth. Deal with it now with minimal loss of life on both sides, or deal with it later with much higher losses. Not much consolation to the relatives of the fallen, but the calculus is clear. It is ALWAYS best to stop a fight quickly provided it is prevented from flairing up again later. To simply hide from the fact the fight MUST be fought is to do a Chamberlain like Slick Wille did.

I just hope that George is as good a poker player as he thinks he is...

FT
 
I do what the President says and hope that all of your opinions get put aside if we ever do get put into action.

And as for waiting around for the rest of the world to come and watch...... f**k um'.... If you want something done right, you better dam well do it yourself.
 
I have never been as concerned about a situation as I am with Iraq. I run a very large agricultural operation with a large staff and close to 400 seasonal employees and we do business both with the US and with the Middle east. And ship alot of our cherries by air freight. Israel is a major supplier of many of the Ag products we use every day. hell they know how to turn the desert Green SE BC isnt that much of a challange. If I look at this from a buiness perspective I see the following as a result of GW Bush's approach to this crisis especially the "Ill go it alone" stuff and an explanation of how it affects us personally post afganistan and since GW raised the Iraq issue....

DOW down 1500 points ( lost a ton of $$)
US dollar down 10% ( We sell in US $ our income down before we start 10%)
US balance of trade getting very negative ( Like doing business with a company going under)
Consumer confiedence sinking fast ( My cherries sell for up to 6 bucks a lb this aspect is not good)
Fuel prices up 35% ( This just affects everything)
Increases in Unemployment ( I have never in my life had a list of people wanting work as long as it is now if I needed 200 people tomorrow morning I could find them easy It has never never been this bad )


I am not so much against dealing with Iraq as I have a problem with 'how' GW has approached this. He has acted like a petulant child in his dealings with the world community. In doing that he has isolated the US to a greater degree than at any time in history. The risk here? When (and i say when deliberately) GW attacks it will probably be alone or with only brit and aussie support after a UN veto by one of the big three and despite the US success or failure it will cause a very large portion of the world poulation to resent it. A portion of those will move from dislike of the US to Hatred. a portion of those will decide that they want to do something about it by way of terror. Ultimately the US becomes more isolated and hated not only does the world become a lot more dangerous but Business suffers esp. US business. The balance of trade sinks further and a spiral begins that takes the worlds pivotal economy into a spin that makes life difficult for us all. No good will come from this divisive approach. Yeah Saddam needs to be dealt with so does Mobutu and a long list of others but I am afraid this is not the smartest way to do it at all. I would ask what is the hurry and where is the clear and present danger to the US. If Saudi and Turkey dont see an immediate need for war why the US? 9-11? sorry no link there that anyone else can see.

Cherry
 
IMHO Saddam is a ruthless dictator that will do anything to stay in power including using biological and chemical weapons on his own people. There is no doubt in my mind that he would provide weapons of mass destruction to terrorist if he thought it was to his advantage. He has proven that he will not live up to disarmament. The only reasons he has agreed to the current weapons inspections is because he’s looking down the barrel of 200,000 plus U.S. made M16s wielded by U.S. service members like dsgobi that make us proud. Should we deal with him now or wait until he has nuclear weapons or radioactive material to make “dirty bombs?”

Also IMHO the French love of peace is based on their own selfish oil interests and a desire to relive their glory days when someone other than chefs and fashion designers cared about their opinion. Their military might is comparable to the New Hampshire Nation Guard (No offense intended, to the New Hampshire National Guard that is). While the French are flapping their jaws, who’s footing the bill to keep the military forces in place that forced Saddam to agree to the inspections. If the U.S. packed up and went home, would Saddam allow the inspections to continue? Yeah right. As far as I’m concerned, if the French want more time for inspections they should pony up and pay the bill for keeping the troops in place. Otherwise, they should shut up and go make some pastries, something that they’re good at.
 
As a strictly personal opinion (menaing that in no way am I prompting any of you to change your ideas or feel like I want you to change your ideas by my response) I think that what we are doing is perfectly alright, if not even necessary. If we just stepped back after September 11th, and said "Heck, why not? Lets give peace a shot!" Then what would that be saying to other terrorist countries? How about " Hey look America is open for attack!!" In my opinion, we are finally giving these people what they deserve!

Kayla:)
 
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