What's with the UTD haters?

[gearhound]

I'm going to use a couple of UTD's videos to demonstrate what I'm talking about when I say that the air will congregate at the shoulder blades or pull the wing away from the body. How will it affect you're diving? I think the majority of divers wouldn't notice. But it will be an issue in a tight cave or wreck.
The pivot point for your centre of gravity is not at your shoulder blades. Most will notice it when they are trying to hover in a prone position. Next time you're hovering, check to see how much you are sculling with your fins. It'll be subtle motions that you are using to correct your trim. Or, you'll just feel 'foot heavy'.
Some might feel this is nitpicking, but as an instructor, I think it's my job to notice these details.

The first one is an excellent description of how to do a back kick. Hence my respect for UTD training. But it is the wing I want to focus on.
UTD Z System Side Mount DVD Preview - YouTube

The second one has the bigger wing, as well as a few other issues that could be pointed out. But it is on one of their official websites, so I feel is valid for critique when talking about their equipment design. Essentials of Recreational Side Mount Class - Unified Team Diving

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

Thanks to SanDiegoSidemount for starting this thread as when sensible conversations are made, much can be learned.

It's actually pretty astonishing how the tone of this thread has turned around over the last couple of pages. Non-UTD divers are actually posting compliments about UTD gear. Civil dialogue, imagine that!

And I think we've clearly exposed least one source of the acrimony about UTD, which turns out not to be about UTD at all.

---------- Post added February 15th, 2014 at 07:58 AM ----------

I'm going to use a couple of UTD's videos to demonstrate what I'm talking about when I say that the air will congregate at the shoulder blades or pull the wing away from the body. How will it affect you're diving? I think the majority of divers wouldn't notice. But it will be an issue in a tight cave or wreck. The pivot point for your centre of gravity is not at your shoulder blades.

Ah, I see what you're talking about now. I've never noticed the air shift as a problem myself, but then again I'm a bug guy, and I don't need a lot of air in the trim device to balance AL80s. I can see how it would be more noticeable for shorter people, especially if you dive with a pronounced arch in your back. This is obviously an even bigger issue with the "plus" trim device, which I believe is why AG made a "tech" version, which is the same shape as the basic Z Trim, but with more lift.

The Stealth is obviously a great solution if you have these issues. I can see why you'd favor it.

Most will notice it when they are trying to hover in a prone position. Next time you're hovering, check to see how much you're sculling with your fins. It'll be subtle motions that you are using to correct your trim. Or, you'll just feel 'foot heavy'.

Any higher level UTD course should cure a diver of issues related to subtle sculling. (I admit I'm still working on it: my buddy and I do "motionless" drills in the pool to keep the sculling in check.) When a diver is fully task loaded with critical failures, they'll tend to forget about the sculling, and trim will go out of whack. At the higher levels, this will fail your execution of an exercise.

 

[ScubaInChicago]

It's actually pretty astonishing how the tone of this thread has turned around over the last couple of pages. Non-UTD divers are actually posting compliments about UTD gear. Civil dialogue, imagine that!

And I think we've clearly exposed least one source of the acrimony about UTD, which turns out not to be about UTD at all.

Sorry, I'm in the camp of UTD gear sucks, I've just been holding my tongue.

Rebreather: FAIL
Z Manifold: FAIL
Every other piece of UTD rebranded gear manufactured by OTHERS: FAIL

I will give credit to the innovation process of the Z Manifold, it is a unique item not rebranded that took some actual R&D to implement along with standards and protocols which took a tremendous amount of time. I'll give UTD an A for effort on that one.

 

[gearhound]

It's actually pretty astonishing how the tone of this thread has turned around over the last couple of pages. Non-UTD divers are actually posting compliments about UTD gear. Civil dialogue, imagine that!

And I think we've clearly exposed least one source of the acrimony about UTD, which turns out not to be about UTD at all.

---------- Post added February 15th, 2014 at 07:58 AM ----------



Ah, I see what you're talking about now. I've never noticed the air shift as a problem myself, but then again I'm a bug guy, and I don't need a lot of air in the trim device to balance AL80s. I can see how it would be more noticeable for shorter people, especially if you dive with a pronounced arch in your back. This is obviously an even bigger issue with the "plus" trim device, which I believe is why AG made a "tech" version, which is the same shape as the basic Z Trim, but with more lift.

The Stealth is obviously a great solution if you have these issues. I can see why you'd favor it.



Any higher level UTD course should cure a diver of issues related to subtle sculling. (I admit I'm still working on it: my buddy and I do "motionless" drills in the pool to keep the sculling in check.) When a diver is fully task loaded with critical failures, they'll tend to forget about the sculling, and trim will go out of whack. At the higher levels, this will fail your execution of an exercise.

I know I'm nitpicking. And much of this will only affect people diving at the extremes, or those that view it as an art that they trying to perfect. We can draw a parallel from golf. There are millions of people hacking it up on the golf course, but only a select few that make a living as a pro. The pros get there with lots of focused practice. I could spend as much time as Tiger Woods at the driving range, but I'll never be as good unless I know where I need to make changes (and get a million times more talent). We could make hundreds of dives and be fine. But if we want to achieve our best, we need to look at the fine details that we can improve upon.
And as golf marketing has shown, we like to buy the gear that the pros play. For me, the pros are the ones that are doing all the cave exploration. They're testing the gear to the extremes and seeing what works and what doesn't. The Stealth, the Razor, the Nomad, the Armadillo and even the Halcyon Contour have this background and gravitas behind them. The rest (I'll include UTD and Hollis) are just shooting in the dark.
It's nice that you recognize the Stealth, because UTD is. They've copied the loop bungees and the way to use them that Patrick made popular. People used the 'old school' loop bungees before (I started out with the Armadillo), but this is slightly different. And I will point out that it's a variation of how Bogaerts set up his one piece bungee. And AG is now copying the sliding rubber d-rings that the Stealth made popular. So even UTD is recognizing how good the Stealth 2.0 is.

 

[Jeproks]

Gearhound, there have been a few changes made in the last year or two with the trim devices. Mainly it's the incorporation of loops at the top end of the wings that the bungees pass through to pull the sides and top of the wing close to the body. I'm not sure if there are videos of these up, but I'll try to find one so you can see if the change makes a difference.
All of the designs have their own little nuances I believe. And I honestly don't think it's fair to say that UTD is shooting in the dark.
Like you say, and I totally agree with you, we should look at fine details to improve upon does mean that we can push forward and innovate. Try things until they work and work well. The fact that, as you observe, UTD notices some of these bits and somehow assimilated something similar or the same into the design is testament to openness and learning. A thoughtful process of analysis and testing that is beyond a hit or miss shot in the dark.

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[gearhound]

Correction: I may be mistaken about the sliding d-rings. I thought I saw a video with AG talking about them, but can't find it now. So probably my bad! I apologize if I'm wrong.

 

[Jeproks]

Did you mean the O-rings style sliders? Some of us were testing these out. Again some liked them, others didn't.

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[victorzamora]

Please understand I'm not trying to derail the positive-UTD train this thread has hopped on. Please also understand I harbor no hatred for UTD, be it the gear, the divers, or the instructional processes. I am also new enough to Tech diving that the GUE vs UTD means zilch to me, and I have zero preference for either of them. Also, please understand that the written word is not very good at conveying tone, and I'm extra bad at conveying tone via written word. Don't read the following in a tone of inflammatory, accusatory, or intolerant speech....read it as cold, hard, and factual. I lean neither way, but would like to learn.

Not all of us! I appreciate the rational critiques that have been made of the Z manifold

I've asked you multiple times to explain very simple things, and you've dodged/skirted/repeated the same stuff you have been saying. I definitely can't say that's true.

I look forward to being able to try independent SM in the future so I can have a solid basis for comparison.
For me personally, the way I dive at the moment (mostly recreational), the pluses outweigh the minuses. In the future, who knows?

So, you know little about independent sidemount yet you feel qualified to discuss the pluses and minuses? That's not a very firm basis. I don't have any personal experience with the Z-Manifold, but have read a lot about it. While I'm far from the most qualified person to make a judgement call on it, I'm asking questions that get skirted or danced around or answered with very poor logic. If I'm to be convinced of buying a $1000 manifold just to make a qualified decision on it, I hope that there is a good, logical reason to do so. I still haven't heard one.


So, the big question:
In what way is the Z-Manifold better than standard, independent sidemount? If no independent sidemount experience, why did you go straight to the Z-manifold instead of starting out with standard, independent sidemount?

 

[DaleC]

SDS can answer for himself, but I think the well known advantage will be that reg use does not change from UTD BM so both teams can dive/drill/donate the same way.

In trad SM you switch regs, which means you may at times, not be on a primary longhose to donate. It may be clipped off or stowed. Of course you can rig trad tanks with 2 longhoses so you are always donating a long primary but the back up won't be bungeed the same way. It is different.

With the Z manifold you switch tanks, the reg stays in your mouth so you are always on your primary longhose, ready to donate, with a bungeed backup. It allows mixed team diving using the same reg donation/configuration protocol.

Many SM divers accept the altering of the exact longhose donation protocol/configuration as being a relative non issue but UTD feels otherwise and chooses to violate some other concepts (simplicity, reduction of failure points) in order to preserve that one. One can argue the last points merits but I think that's the basic premise.

It's not my cup of tea but I have to say, after years of seeing so many divers not able to dependably deploy, or sometimes even locate regs, I can't argue against anyone wanting to be in a group that values those skills. I opted out of such unreliable dependence long ago by becoming self reliant. Others move towards dir/utd/gue.

 

[victorzamora]

I know it's not your point and you're not a zevangelist, but:

The always-donate-your-longhose is the worst crock of crap I've ever heard. I keep hearing that it's simpler with the UTD system but simply can't figure out why for the life of me. Opening and closing tanks is much tougher and takes much longer than simply swapping regs. Also, and most importantly, anybody that can't deploy regs properly is heavily lacking in training. Edd teaches "real" OOA donation stuff and has attacked me (albeit gently) in an OOA simulation to make sure I donate properly.....and I've never failed to donate. Some SMers teach deployable short hose reg in case of SHTF, totally unexpected OOA scenario in case someone tears the reg out of your mouth unexpectedly.....but deploying your longhose should take about 2 seconds.

The other one I've heard is the "easier to don/doff" and I just don't get it. You still have to route your hoses and hook everything up and get everything connected. The only difference is you can do it at different times. If you don't remove your BCD/Drysuit between dives and ALL you're doing is swapping tanks then yeah, it's quicker....but the 30 seconds it's saving you are absolutely NOT worth the $1000 price tag and the additional failure points.