what's up with this dir stuff.

[Soggy]

I know how hard it is to clearly consider long held dogmas, I used to share this one, but I've been persuaded to change my view.

It's not a long held dogma. I've used a neoprene drysuit. It requires more gas the deeper you go. That is a fact. More gas in your suit makes a bubble in the suit that is more difficult to manage. With a shell suit the volume in the suit is constant. With a neoprene suit, it isn't. The neoprene compresses and either you compensate with more gas in the suit or more gas in the wing. Either way, your rig is not balanced, especially if you are diving steel doubles since you require more weight at the bottom than at the surface.

It is warmer, I'll give you that, but with a good undergarment that extra warmth is unimportant.

This is such a minor point in the DIR world that I can't believe I'm even arguing about it. I'm confident in my reasons (and that of the WKPP and GUE) for not using neoprene drysuits, and you're happy with using a neoprene suit and that's really all that matters.

 

[TSandM]

Sorry for butting in, since I'm not part of your region, but this dry suit question is too interesting for me to leave alone.

Consider the same diver, wearing the same undergarments, in a trilam or a neoprene suit.

If you want the two setups to be equivalent in warmth, you need the same amount of "insulation". In that case, you have to put a bit more air in the trilam suit than in the neoprene, and you would be wearing the same amount of weight to sink either.

If the neoprene is warmer, that would suggest you've got the same amount of air inside both suits, but the trapped air in the neoprene is an additional amount over what you're carrying with the trilam. That would mean you need more weight to sink the neoprene suit/undergarment system. When the neoprene then compressed, you'd have to add that air to the inside of the suit, creating a larger (and therefore potentially more unstable) air bubble inside the suit at depth.

I have the gut level feeling that the functional difference with crushed or compressed neoprene is minimal (going by the fact that I added a total of two pounds when going from my trilam to my compressed neoprene), but with uncompressed neoprene it could be enough to notice.

If you're maxed out on undergarment, lofting it appropriately, and still cold, it's probably worth whatever nuisance value is involved in the extra air. At least for me it is. I think it's more DIR to be warm and thinking clearly than to have the right kind of suit.

 

[JeffG]

It is warmer, I'll give you that, but with a good undergarment that extra warmth is unimportant.

Its only warmer at the surface. Once it gets to depth and is crushed from water pressure it acts like a shell suit. Which means it needs good undies to keep you warm at depth.


If you use good undies, then the neoprene isn't required. It just adds extra buoyancy at the surface.

 

[Soggy]

One thing I've left out is that the *warmth* of a neoprene drysuit is also variable since the thickness of the suit varies with depth(yes that Rubatex stuff is "better"), so a dive to 20 ft will require less insulation than a dive to 200 ft. This is not ideal. It may be perfectly acceptable for you as an individual, however, but as part of the DIR system it is not, because of all of the reasons stated.

 

[Thalassamania]

and people say DIR divers are insulting..

No insult was intended, if you feel the need to take it as such I'm trully sorry.

If the gas within the neoprene is compressed and compensated for via a bubble in your shoulders. You have lost your thermal protection.

Actually due to the uniformity of tiny bubbles and the quality of the rubber GN231-N is rather more resistant to crush than are any of the piles or fills from which undergarments are made.

Have you dove a drysuit?

Yes, my first dry suit was a Unisuit that I bought in 1969, since then I've had about two dozen suits. I current have four dry suits, but I really only dive three of them with any regularity.

 

[Soggy]

Its only warmer at the surface. Once it gets to depth and is crushed from water pressure it acts like a shell suit. Which means it needs good undies to keep you warm at depth.

Well, it never compresses completely, so it will always be warmer than a trilam and it will remain at least as warm or warmer than a CF200 suit.

 

[daniel f aleman]

This from JeffG above:

DIR is a set of diving policies and procedures supported by a specific equipment configuration.

GUE is a training agency that teaches the DIR method.


The point is, that the author of the article throws out all kinds of stuff and basically hopes that... it does what? Inform? Motivate? Insult?

Sadly, the thing is that GUE and its DIR program would have been a real positive, except... anyway, the good that will come from it is that the best of GUE program will be absorbed by the big agencies who have the talent to teach it for real.

 

[Soggy]

This from JeffG above:

DIR is a set of diving policies and procedures supported by a specific equipment configuration.

GUE is a training agency that teaches the DIR method.


The point is, that the author of the article throws out all kinds of stuff and basiclally hopes that... it does what?

Sadly the thing is that GUE and its DIR program would have a real positive, except.... the good that comes from it is that the best of GUE program will be absorbed by the big agencies who have the talent to teach it for real.

Huh? En Anglais?

What is your experience with GUE and DIR? Have you taken a GUE class or trained with a WKPP diver?

 

[JeffG]

Well, it never compresses completely, so it will always be warmer than a trilam and it will remain at least as warm or warmer than a CF200 suit.

OK...a thick shell suit then. picky picky

 

[STOGEY]

OK thank god my post, written in a drunken rage at the Pats performance last night, never got posted. (You have to hit the submit button, otherwise it will still be there on your computer screen in the morning, dumbarse!)

The DIR zealots espouse their 'holistic' approach to diving. According to them, if you are not Doing It Right you are, by definition, Doing It Wrong. You are unsafe, and a stroke, and are endangering the lives of every other diver on the boat.

Lighten up Francis, indeed! Please!

What started out as a bunch of good ideas was ruined by the self absorbed egotistical a-hole who promoted it. That's too bad, because some of the DIR ideas are well thought out and promote safer diving. It's also too bad that it's viewed as an all or nothing thing by the DIR zealots.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I am a cafeteria DIR diver. I'll pick out what I want to use and pass on the rest. I've adopted a long primary and my secondary under my chin. Those are, to me, good ideas.
On the other hand, I'm not hanging my head in shame cause I don't see a reason to tie on a snap to the end of my hose! I trust quick release buckles! I don't have a crotch d-ring cause I don't own a scooter! And I'm overweight! Oh Lordy Lordy, look at the stroke, Momma, look at the stroke!

The DIR folks would find many more folks embracing their ideas if they didn't insist you drink the Cool Aide. Maybe I'll just sit here in the back pew and observe, thank you very much Mr Jones.

Paul

(Ya, this is the toned down version, you wouldn't believe the one written last night! Not for nuttin, but Cory Dillon's knee was down!)

I've been looking into the DIR idea also. In my opinion if a person who is really interested in diving doesn't always try to improve their diving techniques wether it be by experience or through instruction they really don't get the most out of the hobby. However I refuse to follow every single dir or even padi type policy, because not everything fits my style.

I do not knock others who want to go by the bible of their industry.