xmass-Eve
Contributor
No, that depends... Some do like this, some don't and do the army signal. I teach it how the dive center wants me to teach it. And it has been both ways...
Arborfield Amphibians SAC - Underwater Signals - during dive 3
What's the hand signal for "you all" or "we all"
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Arborfield Amphibians SAC - Underwater Signals - during dive 3
I'm sorry you feel obliged to do something you know to be wrong and confusing.
When signing "everyone" to a DM I make a sign with two hands that form an imaginary "ball" starting at the top and ending at the bottom.
With students I will tell each student individually to "hold" (you + stop). The reason is because I train people to repeat the same sign back again in order to confirm that they understood what I want of them.
R..
It's obvious that the signs are different but you're making a value judgement about who is right and who is wrong and I'm not in agreement about your conclusions. Consistency is important, however, and I do agree with you about that. I wish we could work out a standardized sign language akin to ASL but with a more limited vocabulary.
In Europe, as far as I know we have very consistent signs for 100-bar (1/2 tank), 50-bar (reserve), low on air, out of air and danger (clenched fist making a punching movement). Crossed arms with closed fists means "abort" not "danger" in a recreational context. Much of this universal Europe wide with respect to recreational divers.
In Egypt I see the "X" symbol with raised thumbs as opposed to clenched fists to indicate ending a dive normally (as opposed to abort) and the clenched fist touching the other hand to indicate a current. In Mexico I have seen some really creative ways of indicating tank pressure using the left hand for 1000's of psi and the right hand (possibly laid across the other arm) for 100's. I could go on but you get the picture.
R..
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those signals are horrible....
about as bad as the nonsense they teach in Mexico for "thousands on the wrist". Someone gave that to me last weekend when I asked for pressure and I was like "wtf are you talking about". If I ask you the gas, give it to me directly. In PSI countries, give it to me in hundreds of PSI, i.e. 3000= three, zero. In bar countries, give it in tens of bar, i.e. 200 bar=two, zero
@Diver0001 the problem with the signals that they indicated are that they are confusing and can easily be misinterpreted with other signals. Especially the variants of closed fist, and the arms crossed. With many of them being two handed, they are not compatible with technical diving of any variety, but especially in caves. Our one-hand signals are much less complex
Aside from the fact that the diver in the picture is not actually diving, these are signs that every European diver would understand. What you also can't see in the pictures is that the answer to the question of how much air someone has is a chained series. Answer to the question "how much pressure" is giving like "pressure + 1/2 + 20" to indicate 120 bar, for example. It's inefficient but logical and once again every recreational diver outside of the USA will easily recognise these signs.
I fully understand the issue and I appreciate that for technical diving signs need to be one handed whenever possible. My point wasn't to suggest that you're talking out of your ass but to suggest that your conclusion that signs that don't meet your exceptions are "nonsense" is jumping to conclusions.
Once again, it would be good if we could have a rational discourse about a universal sign language without the posturing.
R..
xmass-Eve
Contributor
Well, we all understand those signals perfectly... That's why there should be a good briefing. Different agencies, different ways of teaching... Don't feel better than someone else because you do it different. If I am guiding, I ask how people will signal me their air consumption. Then there is no misunderstanding. If I am teaching I do it RSTC way of the shop...
From the NACD "Hand Signals for Scuba Diving" 2005 version: So I guess you mean YOU don't use the STOP sign.
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@Diver0001 the only ones from the AASAC link I have an issue with are the 100bar and 50bar. The 100bar because it's 2-hand and 2-hand signals should be avoided if possible, but it also can conflict with other signals.
The 50bar one is truly idiotic because it conflicts with a command signal from literally every other group of divers. Hold is hold, in all technical agencies, and to my knowledge all recreational agencies in the US. Truly don't understand what benefit that is vs. just giving a 5 *from the same logic of their "30 bar" signal.
The RSTC is those plus the
The only issue I have with those plus the reserve/bailout/LoG fist signal. Use that and tap it against your chest, much easier.
@tursiops stop=hold. I don't know anyone who actually uses the "stop" signal. Obviously everyone knows what it would mean, but everyone I know just gives the hold signal. There is no point in differentiating. In both circumstances you are being told to stop whatever it is you are doing until such time that you are told to do something else or it is "ok" to continue on. I am certified by the NACD in full-cave, and it was not a sign used in my course for the reason above. The only difference is with "hold" being a command signal, you have to acknowledge it
This is what GUE has to say about it in their manuals. It is what is most commonly used in cave diving
2. Stop/Hold
Failure to properly recognize and acknowledge the stop or hold command can be very dangerous. Misunderstandings relating to the hold signal have resulted in confusion and fatalities. The stop command is communicated with a closed fist directed toward the other diver(s). The open palm signal is also common in the open water community. It is crucial that this command be returned, as a mis- communication could easily lead to team separation.
The 50bar one is truly idiotic because it conflicts with a command signal from literally every other group of divers. Hold is hold, in all technical agencies, and to my knowledge all recreational agencies in the US. Truly don't understand what benefit that is vs. just giving a 5 *from the same logic of their "30 bar" signal.
The RSTC is those plus the
The only issue I have with those plus the reserve/bailout/LoG fist signal. Use that and tap it against your chest, much easier.
@tursiops stop=hold. I don't know anyone who actually uses the "stop" signal. Obviously everyone knows what it would mean, but everyone I know just gives the hold signal. There is no point in differentiating. In both circumstances you are being told to stop whatever it is you are doing until such time that you are told to do something else or it is "ok" to continue on. I am certified by the NACD in full-cave, and it was not a sign used in my course for the reason above. The only difference is with "hold" being a command signal, you have to acknowledge it
This is what GUE has to say about it in their manuals. It is what is most commonly used in cave diving
2. Stop/Hold
Failure to properly recognize and acknowledge the stop or hold command can be very dangerous. Misunderstandings relating to the hold signal have resulted in confusion and fatalities. The stop command is communicated with a closed fist directed toward the other diver(s). The open palm signal is also common in the open water community. It is crucial that this command be returned, as a mis- communication could easily lead to team separation.
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And yet..... across the globe these are the signs people learn. So what to do about that?
In actual fact, the 50bar sign can't be confused with the "hold" sign because in most of the world the "hold" sign is not treated differently than the "stop" sign. 50-bar is 50-bar and stop is stop. That's the way it's treated.
Once again you're making a value judgement about this based upon what a VERY VERY small population of divers does. World wide most divers are not American. Of those who are only a handful are technical divers and of those technical divers only a handful are cave divers. You're coming on strong using language like "fu*ked" up and "nonsense" and while I don't think you're necessarily wrong to point out that it should be more consistent, I think your attitude could use a little more balance.
R..
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