What's my valve?

[OMyMyOHellYes]

It is precisely the opposite. A 300 bar fill whip has a longer center ”dimple” which prevents sealing on a 200/232 bar valve.

(Regulators are the opposite, the rare 200 bar DIN regulator having too few threads to mate with a 300 bar valve.)

Ah. OK. The little tit out there... I see it in the cutaway schematic. Cute. Cool. They not all made that way.

My whips, now mine (see below hooked to a Provalve), they no got those little protrusions so the 300 BAR fill lead goes right into the 200 bar valve and seals just fine. But we really don't see 300 BAR bottles here in the US either so it is not a huge concern (never have seen one in the flesh, but mine's an extremely small sampling).

Seems that here the DIN fillers have 300 BAR fittings that also work on the 200s (at least a brief review of NE Scuba and Piranah, where I would likely think to go to if I wanted to buy a new whip):

"This is our fill whip end page. The dins are all 300 bar so they can be used in both 200 bar or 300 bar din valves."

Fill Whip Ends

Fill Whip Ends

northeastscubasupply.com

"Our transfill whip has 300 bar DIN connectors on each end"

Din Cylinder Transfill Large bore Hose w/ Pony Bottle Gauge!

Our transfill whip has 300 bar DIN connectors on each end Our new pony bottle gauge is smaller and simpler to handle but still has an high accuracy Our pony bottle gauge face makes reading easy and simple in either PSI or BAR! The color coding makes looking at where you are with your transfill...

www.piranhadivemfg.com

Just an image from one of the whip end fitting offerings of the NE Scuba page (no tit):

​

 

[Tracy]

It is precisely the opposite. A 300 bar fill whip has a longer center ”dimple” which prevents sealing on a 200/232 bar valve.

(Regulators are the opposite, the rare 200 bar DIN regulator having too few threads to mate with a 300 bar valve.)

You are trying to use European logic on an American tank valve.
300 bar and 200 bar are simply valve type references in the US.
They do not denote pressure.
Our fill whips do not have a nipple.
They are use interchangeably here and it just depends on what the customer ordered.
Pressure rating is based entirely on the burst disc installed.

 

[jborg]

Right, I see things are wilder in the west. Over here, this is a 300 bar fill connection:

Transfill whips though are often "300 bar regulator" (i.e., all the threads, no nipple) and will mate with anything. Care needs to be taken to not overfill more than intended.

 

[Tracy]

Right, I see things are wilder in the west. Over here, this is a 300 bar fill connection:

View attachment 867836

Transfill whips though are often "300 bar regulator" (i.e., all the threads, no nipple) and will mate with anything. Care needs to be taken to not overfill more than intended.

Yes, I know exactly what you are speaking of, but it is very different here. It doesn't make sense and there aren't written standards for it. You just learn by doing and seeing.
It is unique. Not better or worse, just different.

 

[runsongas]

Europe lost the right to lecture about doing dumb things with scuba tanks when they came up with M26

 

[jborg]

Europe lost the right to lecture about doing dumb things with scuba tanks when they came up with M26

At least that's just a theoretical construction that nobody* uses...

*) Sure, France, or whatever, but nobody else.

 

[Tanks A Lot]

Europe lost the right to lecture about doing dumb things with scuba tanks when they came up with M26

The CGA connectors #851 and #853 would like to have a word with you

Borrowing from another thread:

[...]
In 2000 the CGA introduced two new SCUBA connections to the CGA V-1: Connectors #851 and #853. The 851 connection was meant for hypoxic gases, while 853 was meant for hyperoxic gases. This in essence meant that a technical diver that carried air, a bottom gas and deco gas would have to have THREE different connections. If that doesn't scream silly I do not know what does.
Alas, you Americans were stubborn enough and in 2005 with the twelfth edition of the CGA V-1, both connectors got scrubbed. The little side-note in the document still gives me a chuckle:"[...] because they were not properly used by the diving industry."
[...]

[...] Not better or worse, just different.

I do think there is real value in a sense that withdrawal and charging connectors are not the same for the 300bar versions in Europe. A 300bar valve shouldn't ever find its way onto a 232bar rated cylinder. And because the charging connector of a 300bar fill whip doesn't mate with a 232bar valve, by design the cylinder cannot be overfilled. The system is still not fool-proof, as 300bar cylinder valves still find their way onto 232bar rated cylinders. But in principle, this system negates the need for burst discs, which is a big plus in my view.

The U.S. system isn't designed o prevent overfilling cylinders, a sound burst disc would only trigger in extreme circumstances. I do like the preventative approach in Europe, with trying to make overfills impossible, better suited for a busy dive centre environment, than the reactive approach of the U.S., which would vent gas in extreme overfill scenarios. Human error is inevitably, but I feel like a technician would in general be more careful to fit a cylinder with an appropriate valve, than a compressor operator would be in checking rated pressures. Especially if he has 100 cylinders to fill, while running the counter and at the same time giving an Open Water class.
But as you pointed out earlier, 300bar cylinders are very rare in the U.S., so the point is mostly irrelevant.

 

[DiveGearExpress]

This...

SCUBA Valves | Dive Gear Express®

Valves, Regulator Fittings, 200 vs 300 Bar FAQ, Cylinder Neck Openings

www.divegearexpress.com

 

[Tanks A Lot]

This...

SCUBA Valves | Dive Gear Express®

Valves, Regulator Fittings, 200 vs 300 Bar FAQ, Cylinder Neck Openings

www.divegearexpress.com

This is a very well written article, however it has a a couple of tiny inaccuracies:

[...]The two valve outlets and connectors of interest for divers are the DIN 477 No. 13 and the DIN 477 No. 56[...]
[...]Outlet/Connector #56 is from DIN 477 part 5 - for cylinders with test pressure ratings up to 450 bar[...]

DIN477-5 connector #56 describes a connector for pressurized air, however it is not in intended for the usage of breathing gases. The connector described here does not have a G 5/8" thread, but a W30x2 thread. DIN477-5 specifically excludes breathing devices. "Diese Norm gilt nicht für Anschlüsse von Atemgeraten nach DIN EN 144-2.", which translates to "This standard does not apply to connections to breathing apparatus in accordance with DIN EN 144-2."
EN144-2 itself does not describe the connectors anymore, but has done so in the past. It now refers to ISO 12209-2013, which clearly lays out design criteria. As far as I can remember, the first time I have seen the 300bar connection fully described was in ISO 12209-2:2000. Back then ISO12209 was split into three parts which were only combined in 2013.

On a sidenote, ISO12209 has been amended in 2016 to include a connector for breathable air up to a working pressure of 500bar. The principle is the same as the 300bar working pressure connection, but a gain with more threads and the charging connector has an even deeper nipple. I have yet to see one in the wild...

The two designs are nearly identical, but the #56 valve outlet is deliberately deeper so the shorter #13 connector will not be long enough to seat properly. This is a safety feature to prevent connecting a low pressure device to a high pressure supply.

This is certainly true for the U.S. market, with the caveat that connector #56 from DIN477-5 is incorrect, but I would argue that the back to the valve is equally a distinguishing feature. The back of a 300bar connection has a deep recess into which the 300bar charging nipple will slide. But if I read what Tracy and you have said correctly, this recess and nipple are not present in the U.S., which is a shame.

232bar withdrawal in 232bar valve:

300bar withdrawal in 300bar valve:

300bar charging in 300bar valve:

300bar charging in 232bar valve (does not seal!):

232bar withdrawal in 300bar valve (does not seal!:

 

[DiveGearExpress]

This is a very well written article, however it has a a couple of tiny inaccuracies:

Thanks! This article hasn't been significantly updated in several years, so it's now on my to-do to do several minor edits. From my understanding, the reference should be changed from 477-5 to 477-2 and the connectors themselves to the ISO numbers, is that correct?