What would you have done?

[MXGratefulDiver]

Ascend at the slowest rate possible breathing from the freeflowing reg the way I learned in OW, and use the extra air on the hang line at 20ft for my safety stop. Find another diver at the hang line and share air with them to ascend the remaining 20ft.

Realistically ... you would not have made it. You already told us that you signaled your buddy at 1,000 psi, and that you started up from more than 120 fsw somewhat after that. You told us that you ascended faster than the recommended rate, and that you surfaced with only a 300 psi reserve. If your regulator had started free-flowing at depth, you would most likely have had to resort to an emergency swimming ascent to get to the surface ... and with an aggressive dive profile that had put you close to, or over, your no-decompression limit, you are now in a situation where no matter what you do you only have bad alternatives to choose from.

The key to being a good diver is recognizing and keeping yourself out of situations where you have to make bad choices.

I'm a fairly strong swimmer, and though I recognize swimming without a fin is difficult and requires a lot of exertion, I could have surfaced. If I'd lost my mask I would have ascended at the slowest rate I could freely and signaled for the boat to pick me up.

Have you attempted any maskless diving yet? If not, I recommend you give it a try ... in shallow water ... and see how well you do at controlling your buoyancy. Chances are without being able to read your gauges, at your experience level you won't be very good at using the other physical "cues" you'll need to make a controlled ascent.

There was little current, but I would have done a free ascent and signaled the boat. They'd warned me before the dive that in the case of a free ascent I'd have to wait for every diver to get back on board before they could come pick me up.

OK ... at 30 feet per minute, it would've taken you about four minutes to reach safety stop depth, then a drifting safety stop, then another half-minute to reach the surface. How far do you think you'd drift from the boat in 7-1/2 minutes? Did you have a signalling device like a safety sausage with you? Because chances are at the point you surface the boat wouldn't be able to see you.

They have, and I did. I'm not going to say I could deal with every eventuality, and I recognize that its easier to have these answers on my couch than it is under the sea.

I'm really happy to see that you're thinking about these things. And I realize that your experience level is very limited. I'm going to encourage you to get out and practice some of these failure scenarios ... to see where your "bar" for handling them really is. It may prove ... enlightening. Practice is key. Most of us believe we can handle a situation ... until we are put in a position where we have to.

We already went over this, and no, there would not have been enough air left. However, my buddy was the one with the cavalier attitude in this respect. He's got his years and years of experience and obviously did not think he would need to breathe off my tank, so he didn't take that into account. Yes, I should have taken it into account, that's one of the things I know I did wrong.

I'm glad you recognize this ... the first, and biggest mistake was doing the dive under the circumstances you agreed to in advance of the dive. NEVER dive with someone who's planning to abandon you at depth ... no matter how many other divers are around. In this case, knowing what you knew, at a minimum you should've had a redundant air source and the ability (training and practice) to deploy it if needed. None of us can breathe water, and you should never rely on someone else's dive buddy to save you if for some reason you lose access to your air supply.

I exceeded my deco limit due to the buddy not following the plan.

Wrong logic ... you exceeded your deco limit because you chose to ... regardless of what your dive buddy did. Something you'll learn in your Rescue class is that there are times when you just don't follow your dive buddy. One of those times is at the point where he or she does something that's going to endanger you. At the moment your buddy turned away from the line, you should've chosen to leave him and do what was necessary to assure your own safety.

I did extend my safety stop as per what I was trained to do.

Yes, but you said you exceeded your recommended ascent rate in order to do so ... going up slowly is more important than remaining at 15 feet for a couple extra minutes.

As far as my ascent rate goes, I made that statement based on what the computer dive log showed. I'm honestly not entirely familiar with that computer (which is why I had my watch as a backup) and I don't know at what point it tags the ascent as too quick. Either way, I did a relatively slow ascent. Its not like I just shot up to the surface with no regard for making a slow, safe ascent.

Most computers are set to alarm if your rate exceeds 30 feet per minute. Some use a 60 feet per minute algorithm.

Those are all really good tips, and I do appreciate them. I hope the answers to your questions don't come off as snotty, that's certainly not what I'm intending. As far as losing my air supply after buddy seperation, believe me the thought crossed my mind. I was ascending near enough to other divers that I felt I could get to them and signal out of air in time, but I would have much preferred to ascend with a buddy, like I'd been trained to do.

You strike me as someone who WANTS to learn from the experience. I'm being more than usually blunt because that's what I'd do with one of my own students ... I want them to be safe divers, and sometimes you have to use straight language to get people to hear what you have to say. I won't say "it's not your fault" ... one thing about diving is that we are ALL responsible for the decisions we make. You had a poor dive buddy, and trusted him because of his training. But you also have your own training to fall back on, and what you described violated some of that. Listen to that little voice in the back of your head that's telling you this isn't right ... it'll keep you out of situations like this one.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Logic Theorist]

Sorry that you found my post "condescending." I stated in my FIRST post how absolutely wrong the entire situation was. I'm not in the mindset right now to coddle and hand-hold the newbies. This is a dangerous hobby we love. I don't like hearing about divers killing themselves from stupid actions. The fact that you thought this was in your scope of training floored me.

I am glad that you took the time to post, and respond to concerns posted by others. It shows you have good head on your shoulders. There's a lot more knowledge here on SB than in any books you could read. Maybe next time you post, I'll be out of my "platoon daddy" mode of thinking.

Good Luck,

FD

First off, I appreciate this response.

Let me put this to you: There was a guy on the boat with me on this trip, that literally laughed at my air consumption rate. When I said, "Hey man, I'm pretty new to this, why don't you cut me a little slack?" he responded, with a scoff, "Why should I?"

People like him, responses like that, and like the response you made which I called condescending, have one of two possible results:

1 - They push people like me, newbies, to go outside of the boundaries trying to prove we can be in the cool people club or

2 - They push newbies out of the sport that you love.

They will NEVER result in ANYONE being a better diver. I would submit to you that if this is a sport you truly love, it is your responsibility to help out those with less experience. If that's not a responsibility you choose to take on, certainly no one can force you to, but it takes just as much time and energy to constructively help someone as it does to harshly bash them or laugh at them. If you don't want to do the one, you shouldn't have the time and energy to do the other either.

I've been rock climbing for almost 2 years now, and I have yet to encounter anyone of any experience level who was anything but friendly and helpful. We realize that we are a small and exclusive community that is mystifying to those outside of it and intimidating to those that are new. We realize that if we continue to present a cold shoulder and push away people interested in the sport, when we all grow old and frail there will be no one to pick up the torch and continue on. We also realize that every new person who has a passion for the sport is an opportunity to support gear sale and development, support guiding companies, and basically money and effort that goes into keeping opportunities open for ALL of us to climb. And just in case I need to say this: Climbing is just as difficult and dangerous as diving.

I suppose I expected the same out of the diving community.

So, thank you again for this last post, I feel it was constructive. By contrast, poking fun at my trust in my training was not. If you would like to constructively explain why a dive to 70' or 80' is still not within my abilities, I would be all ears.

 

[Matt_NJ]

To the original OP - I am not very far ahead of your current status, and while I understand the desire to do any dive you can, and I also understand you were made to feel comfortable since you were getting in the water with an instructor ultimately as divers it's our responsability to ensure we are capable of handling the dive. Since I am normally diving with guys that are alot more experienced than I am, I try and take the mind set of "Can I truly help them to get out of the water if they have a problem and panic? Would I be able to handle being the guy in control" If I have to answer myself no to that then i'm really not ready to do the dive, and unfortunately for me there are quite a few dives local to me that I have to pass on because of that.

Also as a side note I have found that diving within your comfort zone regardless of Reef or reck can make diving so much more enjoyable. One of the most enjoyable dives I've done to date was in shallow water and there was really nothing to see. It was enjoyable simply for the fact that I was very very comfortable in my skills and equiptment for the conditions. I knew I had enough air to last me for hours, I knew I had a good buddy, I knew I could easily surface should anythin go wrong with my gear and air supply. Since I had that comfort level I FELT like I imagine an experienced diver feels going on a dive and it made the dive infinately more enjoyable - I was checking my gauges and computer regularly but not every other second like I had a tendancy to do on my first couple of dives outside of training etc. If there are dive sites like that near you try it out. It may seem like a boring dive with nothing to see, but just being in the water complely comfortable with your skills I find to be very fun.

 

[The Logic Theorist]

Realistically ... you would not have made it. You already told us that you signaled your buddy at 1,000 psi, and that you started up from more than 120 fsw somewhat after that. You told us that you ascended faster than the recommended rate, and that you surfaced with only a 300 psi reserve. If your regulator had started free-flowing at depth, you would most likely have had to resort to an emergency swimming ascent to get to the surface ... and with an aggressive dive profile that had put you close to, or over, your no-decompression limit, you are now in a situation where no matter what you do you only have bad alternatives to choose from.

The key to being a good diver is recognizing and keeping yourself out of situations where you have to make bad choices.

I guess what I was trying to get across in response to this one is I would have done what I could and NOT PANICED.

Have you attempted any maskless diving yet? If not, I recommend you give it a try ... in shallow water ... and see how well you do at controlling your buoyancy. Chances are without being able to read your gauges, at your experience level you won't be very good at using the other physical "cues" you'll need to make a controlled ascent.

The maskless portion of OW was one that I had the most trouble with, so I've practiced it a lot. No, I have not made a long ascent without a mask. You may be right and my ascent may not have been very controlled. I will try this at a shallow depth and see, good tip.

OK ... at 30 feet per minute, it would've taken you about four minutes to reach safety stop depth, then a drifting safety stop, then another half-minute to reach the surface. How far do you think you'd drift from the boat in 7-1/2 minutes? Did you have a signalling device like a safety sausage with you? Because chances are at the point you surface the boat wouldn't be able to see you.

I had a whistle, and I expected I would wave one of my fins to signal. Again, the current was virtually non-existant. If this had been a dive with a much stronger current I would have thought a lot more about bailing on it.

I'm really happy to see that you're thinking about these things. And I realize that your experience level is very limited. I'm going to encourage you to get out and practice some of these failure scenarios ... to see where your "bar" for handling them really is. It may prove ... enlightening. Practice is key. Most of us believe we can handle a situation ... until we are put in a position where we have to.

Seriously that's probably the best advice I've gotten yet, and I will definitely do so.

I'm glad you recognize this ... the first, and biggest mistake was doing the dive under the circumstances you agreed to in advance of the dive. NEVER dive with someone who's planning to abandon you at depth ... no matter how many other divers are around. In this case, knowing what you knew, at a minimum you should've had a redundant air source and the ability (training and practice) to deploy it if needed. None of us can breathe water, and you should never rely on someone else's dive buddy to save you if for some reason you lose access to your air supply.

Again, one of the big things I learned from this experience.

Wrong logic ... you exceeded your deco limit because you chose to ... regardless of what your dive buddy did. Something you'll learn in your Rescue class is that there are times when you just don't follow your dive buddy. One of those times is at the point where he or she does something that's going to endanger you. At the moment your buddy turned away from the line, you should've chosen to leave him and do what was necessary to assure your own safety.

That was my main question with this thread: When does my responsibility to my buddy end and my responsibility to myself begin? Its something they apparently don't teach until Rescue, as all I knew at this point was stay close to your buddy.

Yes, but you said you exceeded your recommended ascent rate in order to do so ... going up slowly is more important than remaining at 15 feet for a couple extra minutes.

Most computers are set to alarm if your rate exceeds 30 feet per minute. Some use a 60 feet per minute algorithm.

Since I'd really only used a watch before I was used to ascending at 60ft/min. I need to check the specs on this computer, but I have a feeling its set to 30ft/min. That seems really conservative to me, am I wrong? It seems to me the more I read that a lot of the nitrogen loading math and science are fuzzy at best, and no one really has firm answers because there are so many factors unique to the individual.

You strike me as someone who WANTS to learn from the experience. I'm being more than usually blunt because that's what I'd do with one of my own students ... I want them to be safe divers, and sometimes you have to use straight language to get people to hear what you have to say. I won't say "it's not your fault" ... one thing about diving is that we are ALL responsible for the decisions we make. You had a poor dive buddy, and trusted him because of his training. But you also have your own training to fall back on, and what you described violated some of that. Listen to that little voice in the back of your head that's telling you this isn't right ... it'll keep you out of situations like this one.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Believe me, I appreciate everything you've posted. I'm answering back with my thoughts but I'm not intending to discount what you're saying by doing so.

 

[diverkristi]

First off, I appreciate this response.

Let me put this to you: There was a guy on the boat with me on this trip, that literally laughed at my air consumption rate. When I said, "Hey man, I'm pretty new to this, why don't you cut me a little slack?" he responded, with a scoff, "Why should I?"

People like him, responses like that, and like the response you made which I called condescending, have one of two possible results:

1 - They push people like me, newbies, to go outside of the boundaries trying to prove we can be in the cool people club or

2 - They push newbies out of the sport that you love.

They will NEVER result in ANYONE being a better diver. I would submit to you that if this is a sport you truly love, it is your responsibility to help out those with less experience. If that's not a responsibility you choose to take on, certainly no one can force you to, but it takes just as much time and energy to constructively help someone as it does to harshly bash them or laugh at them. If you don't want to do the one, you shouldn't have the time and energy to do the other either.

I've been rock climbing for almost 2 years now, and I have yet to encounter anyone of any experience level who was anything but friendly and helpful. We realize that we are a small and exclusive community that is mystifying to those outside of it and intimidating to those that are new. We realize that if we continue to present a cold shoulder and push away people interested in the sport, when we all grow old and frail there will be no one to pick up the torch and continue on. We also realize that every new person who has a passion for the sport is an opportunity to support gear sale and development, support guiding companies, and basically money and effort that goes into keeping opportunities open for ALL of us to climb. And just in case I need to say this: Climbing is just as difficult and dangerous as diving.

I suppose I expected the same out of the diving community.

So, thank you again for this last post, I feel it was constructive. By contrast, poking fun at my trust in my training was not. If you would like to constructively explain why a dive to 70' or 80' is still not within my abilities, I would be all ears.

I think you will find most divers fall into the category that you described for the rock climbers. Please have faith. Most of the group I directed you to think nothing of having a shorter than they expected dive with a newb. They say the joy they see in the face of those with less experience is worth it alone.

On the comments about the 70-80 feet being too advanced for you, I would agree. I would expect your diving "agenda to include some quarry dives before getting in the sea again. Then maybe some ocean dives in ideal circumstances (like the caribbean where there are warm temps, great vis, and little current. THEN maybe you're ready for a NC coastal trip. INshore at 708-80 feet. After a couple of those then you're probably ready to try offshore.

I started like you. Got the c-card then immediatley did AOW. I wanted more dives with an instructor. Then I got in the quarry, then 7 days of 3 tanks a day in Utila in PERFECT conditions (and I went to 100 feet a couple of times in those perfect conditions). THEN I went into the NC waters (just a week later) for the 1st inshore trip (one dive had a ripping current). I remember after that dive thinking....if I hadn't had that week in Utila, NO WAY would I have been ready for this). SAME dive buddy for all of this. The next year I finally went offshore. I am still wary of doing 100ft plus dives in the NC waters. And I won't do them with an insta-buddy. It is too unpredictable out there. I have done 8-10, and will continue to do several a year I'm sure. My point is, I think this is how you might want to progress in your experience.

I think you're getting great advice, and hopefully you can hook up with a group of helpful people. Reading all of this helps too. Accidents and Incidents is VERY helpful to read what can go wrong, and how you should fix it. Makes it an easier thing to think through at 100 feet.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I have primary coverage through work, and secondary I have the DAN master plan.

I get where you're coming from definitely, and I certainly won't be purposefully planning dives that push the limits of my training.

I would read the fine print of that insurance policy if I were you and really focus on the part where DAN tells you that they won't pay for accidents that happen when you exceed your cert's agency recommend practices for your training level.

In this case, you're PADI AOW cert has a recommended maximum depth of 100'. At 101' DAN Insurance stops having to cover you (or at least has a strong argument for not having to cover you).

 

[The Logic Theorist]

I would read the fine print of that insurance policy if I were you and really focus on the part where DAN tells you that they won't pay for accidents that happen when you exceed your cert's agency recommend practices for your training level.

In this case, you're PADI AOW cert has a recommended maximum depth of 100'. At 101' DAN Insurance stops having to cover you (or at least has a strong argument for not having to cover you).

I appear to have a misconception here, or you do, I'm not certain which. The way I read the depth limits in all of my PADI material was that the AOW cert certifies me to dive to 130' within non-deco limits. 100' should be thought of as the max recommended limit, and 130' the absolute max limit, but dives past 100' are allowed by the cert. Also, from the PADI website, the Deep Diver specialty: "Four open water dives that range from 18 - 40 metres / 60 - 130 feet."

Considering the pre-reqs for Tech diver, even the apprentice one, require a number of dives beyond 100', I'm curious as to how one would satisfy that requirement if AOW or any non tech certs only certify them to dive to 100'.

That does not address whether I am personally ready to dive that deep, simply what the certification covers.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

It is recommended that ascents be made no faster than 60 ft per minute. We teach 30 ft as the ideal. As long as your gas is good and you are not in deco then I personally believe there is no such thing as too slow on a recreational ascent. There is also the added benefit of the slower you go the more you see.

I still am amazed at the people who dive with me say did you see that? On an ascent from the duane I was with a new guy who seemed to want to rocket up. It would still have been safe but I made him slow down and pointed out the three barracuda that were just hanging there while if we had let go of the line we'd have gotten picked up in miami!

Also when do you leave your buddy? When you indicated the dive was over for you with a thumbs up and he swam off it was over and time to leave. I'm doing deep dives now in the great lakes on trimix. One of the things that was drilled into us during class is your schedule. WHen the profile calls for me to leave depth at 15 minutes at 15:01 I'm going up the line. Not 10 yards or even 10 ft from it. But on it going up. My buddy is supposed to be there with me. If he is not I have a contingency table cut for maybe 3-5 more minutes but do not want to use it unless it's some type of emergency. If my buddy simply says he wants ot look around some more it's see ya time.

I dove a wreck yesterday in Lake Erie. We planned for 15 minutes at 160 ft on our tables we did not go below 155 and stayed in fact in the range of 152-154 as that was the depth of the deck we were on. At 15 minutes were going up the line at a rate of 30 ft per minute till we hit 70 ft. After that we slowed our ascent even more to be sure no one got hurt. For a 15 minute dive we accumulated 34 minutes of deco. Did every one of them. I started with 3200 psi in my dbl lp85's and came back on with 1300 psi. I had planned using thirds to be back on with 1000 or so. So I was very happy with this. WHy? because it meant that not only did I follow my plan, but also that my SAC was very good, and nothing happened that would have required me to use up more air(read emergency, lost buddy, reg problem,buddy OOA, etc).

Bottom line is when the dive is over for you it is over. I have no problem diving solo and do so quite often. Not on tech dives of course but in the range of recreational depths up to 125 or so I have no problems with that. PADI will tell you it's a nono. And it is if you don't have the proper experience, gear or training. But for those of us who do it is better than having to cut a dive short or dive with someone we deem unsafe. ANd I don't have a solo cert and consider the solo courses I have looked into so far as being somewhat less than worthless. Maybe I just have not yet located the right instructor? But anyway don't think that a solo cert is required except by some ops who want to cover their butts. Me I usually "buddy " up with someone and our plan is you go your way and I'll go mine and try to meet back on the line at the same time so the DM does not *****.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I appear to have a misconception here, or you do, I'm not certain which. The way I read the depth limits in all of my PADI material was that the AOW cert certifies me to dive to 130' within non-deco limits. 100' should be thought of as the max recommended limit, and 130' the absolute max limit, but dives past 100' are allowed by the cert. Also, from the PADI website, the Deep Diver specialty: "Four open water dives that range from 18 - 40 metres / 60 - 130 feet."

Considering the pre-reqs for Tech diver, even the apprentice one, require a number of dives beyond 100', I'm curious as to how one would satisfy that requirement if AOW or any non tech certs only certify them to dive to 100'.

That does not address whether I am personally ready to dive that deep, simply what the certification covers.

These "guidelines" are for the most part BS because you can do one AOw dive to 65 ft and the card says you can go to 100 or 130 or whatever. The AOW cert means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING more than that you have gone deeper than 60 ft with an instructor. It does not mean you are capable of going to 130 or even 100. The only way you get to there is by gradually doing deeper dives till you reach that level. This is part of the warm fuzzies that they put in your head. I know. I'm a PADI DM. It is also a way for them to get more money from you quicker. You are by no means an advanced diver. You have done five more dives with an instructor that gave you very small taste of what lies beyond the ow rating. In many cases the AOW rating gives people the "justification" to put themselves in situations where they have no business being. IE- deep dives they have not worked up to.

 

[The Logic Theorist]

These "guidelines" are for the most part BS because you can do one AOw dive to 65 ft and the card says you can go to 100 or 130 or whatever. The AOW cert means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING more than that you have gone deeper than 60 ft with an instructor. It does not mean you are capable of going to 130 or even 100. The only way you get to there is by gradually doing deeper dives till you reach that level. This is part of the warm fuzzies that they put in your head. I know. I'm a PADI DM. It is also a way for them to get more money from you quicker. You are by no means an advanced diver. You have done five more dives with an instructor that gave you very small taste of what lies beyond the ow rating. In many cases the AOW rating gives people the "justification" to put themselves in situations where they have no business being. IE- deep dives they have not worked up to.

I get that (now). My AOW deep dive was 91' btw, for 12 min, at 40 degrees.

What we appear to be debating at this point is whether or not I would have been covered by my DAN insurance had I ended up bent. Kingpatzer seems to think that if I go to 101' and try to claim coverage against DAN insurance they're going to go "screw you buddy! you went too deep."