What would I gain? Fin upgrade

[meesier42]

Jim & Zzz may be correct, I really don't know. I have some issues with the report however.

In the body of the article under the fins image there are some graphs.
Avanti Superchannel:-
Speed... 2.1mph, Thrust... 36 lbs. Slalom... 71 seconds

Quatro Excels:-
Speed.... 2mph, Thrust..... 38lbs, Slalom... 69 seconds

My 1st thought, how does a fin producing less thrust have a higher top speed & with more speed take longer to do the slalom. Also the null hypothesis would be proved when comparing the performance of these fins.

Then I saw the summery box at the top of the article.

Avanti Superchannel:-
Speed... 2.4 mph, Thrust... 41 lbs. Slalom... 55 seconds

Quatro Excels:-
Speed.... 2.3mph, Thrust..... 40lbs, Slalom... 62 seconds

My conclusion, the author either has no idea haw to analyse & present data, there are mistakes somewhere, he's incompetent or has some agenda that has nothing to do with presenting factual non biased information.

Having said all that, & if I accept the averages presented in the body of the article. There is no statistically significant difference in the performance of these 2 fins. Therefore the price v's performance equation falls heavily on the supperchannel side.

Avanti Superchannel Fullfoot- 2.4mph, 41lbs, 55sec
Avanti Superchannel open heel-2.1mph, 36lbs, 71sec

excels were similar were the full foot outperformed the open heel.

but as for thrust/speed/time in the point is that some very fast and powerful fins are not always manueverable (can't maintain speed in a turn). While the thrust vs top speed is about efficiencies, as static thrust and dynamic thrust are different. As when you are pushing against a wall and not actually moving the fins will produce different thrust than when you are moving and the water is actually flowing around the fin. So your hypothesis that they nulled their own study is wrong.

But Rodales ScubaDiving is an advertising magazine, not a peer reviewed academic study, and you should not expect that the information and results are based on anything other than advertising dollars much less factual. Hence the reason you can see that even the worst fins in the test was given a overall good review. and I don't ever recall seeing anything receive a overall review score of less than 3 out of 5. The information can be useful is you look at care about ergonomics as they will tell you the good points, but as for a useful look at performance, well look elsewhere. About the only thing I think their "scubalab" is good for is their TesterChoice awards, as they normally justify why that was given and was given by the testers not advertisements.

 

[Kern]

Avanti Superchannel Fullfoot- 2.4mph, 41lbs, 55sec
Avanti Superchannel open heel-2.1mph, 36lbs, 71sec

excels were similar were the full foot outperformed the open heel.

but as for thrust/speed/time in the point is that some very fast and powerful fins are not always manueverable (can't maintain speed in a turn). While the thrust vs top speed is about efficiencies, as static thrust and dynamic thrust are different. As when you are pushing against a wall and not actually moving the fins will produce different thrust than when you are moving and the water is actually flowing around the fin. So your hypothesis that they nulled their own study is wrong.

But Rodales ScubaDiving is an advertising magazine, not a peer reviewed academic study, and you should not expect that the information and results are based on anything other than advertising dollars much less factual. Hence the reason you can see that even the worst fins in the test was given a overall good review. and I don't ever recall seeing anything receive a overall review score of less than 3 out of 5. The information can be useful is you look at care about ergonomics as they will tell you the good points, but as for a useful look at performance, well look elsewhere. About the only thing I think their "scubalab" is good for is their TesterChoice awards, as they normally justify why that was given and was given by the testers not advertisements.

Thanx for the input. My bad. Until you pointed it out I had missed the fact that the top box was referring to the full foot versions.
By the way, "the null hypothesis" states that there is no difference between populations. In this case, there is no difference in the performance of these two Mares open heel fins. I don't have an hypothesis that they nulled their own study but as they seem to have redefined the term "objective" & their methods stink, I do think the study is a waste of time, if not an outright con.

 

[Aspendiver]

In this case, there is no difference in the performance of these two Mares open heel fins.

Perhaps true, statistically. If you bothered to read the ergonomic scores, you would see that the divers impressions of the fins were different.

I don't have an hypothesis that they nulled their own study but as they seem to have redefined the term "objective" & their methods stink, I do think the study is a waste of time, if not an outright con.

Really? How would you test them differently?

In order to help you find the pair that's right for you, we took 18 new models, 12 test divers and five test supervisors to Capt. Don's Habitat on Bonaire and conducted the latest round of the industry's most thorough evaluation of recreational dive fins.

Please point out what is innaccurate about this claim? Standardizing any testing methodology is difficult, and obviously, because of the difficulty of mating a mechanical device (the fin) to an organic device (the diver), the results are very subjective. If the tests are "fixed", as you suggest, then why do so many less expensive fins in the test do so well? If you're willing to read the ergonomic scores, I think you'll find that the testers weren't shy about grading what they didn't like.

I feel like the magazine did a laudable job in attempting to quantify some of the attributes necessary in a competent recreational dive fin. Your results may vary.

 

[Aspendiver]

I know we may be getting off-topic here, and I apologize to the OP, but anyone who wants to form their own opinion of the ScubLab fin test can watch this video:

ScubaTV

 

[robway034]

I happen to have owned a pair of the Blades back in the day and only switched because....well.... because I could! I also have a pair of split fins and a pair of the Mares Excels too. All Pretty darned good fins. I have different rationales for when, why and where I "deploy" any given set. I won't write a disertation about what those reasons are, I will say this....
Go to your LDS and ask them to let you try em out in the pool for an hour (or however long) Then make up YOUR own mind. No two divers are the same and niether are thier swimming finning styles. Whatever I could offer would be based on my size, style and philosophy. Finally....Good luck! One of the things I've noticed about todays Dive Industry is that there are a TON OF CHOICES! and most of the major brands of the equipment, these days, is pretty damned good.

 

[Kern]

Hello Aspen

Perhaps true, statistically. If you bothered to read the ergonomic scores, you would see that the divers impressions of the fins were different.

Yes I read the ergonomic scores. As these scores are so subjective, the only testers score I'm really interested in at the end of the day is my own. I usually suggest people try many & make up there own minds.

Really? How would you test them differently?

I'f I couldn't design an objective test, I wouldn't bother. That they suggest they have is quite ingenues. This is why I think it's a con. For the mag. I'd probably do something similar in fact, but rather than describing it as objective tests, I'd describe it as; We went to Bonaire to play with some fins, these are our very subjective results.

Please point out what is innaccurate about this claim?

There may be nothing inaccurate about that claim. Maybe it is the "latest round of the industry's most thorough evaluation of recreational dive fins". But that's all it is, a subjective evaluation, not an objective test.

Standardizing any testing methodology is difficult, and obviously, because of the difficulty of mating a mechanical device (the fin) to an organic device (the diver), the results are very subjective.

Exactly, they've redefined the term "objective".

If the tests are "fixed", as you suggest, then why do so many less expensive fins in the test do so well? If you're willing to read the ergonomic scores, I think you'll find that the testers weren't shy about grading what they didn't like.

I don't think the tests were fixed, I think they're a con. Their entire testing procedure is subjective. As you've pointed out yourself, mating mechanical devices to people will lead to very subjective results. It's using pseudo science to sell their test. To me that's a con.

I feel like the magazine did a laudable job in attempting to quantify some of the attributes necessary in a competent recreational dive fin. Your results may vary.

I'm glad you have your own opinion, but I disagree. And yes, I'm very pedantic when it comes to the misuse of the scientific method & statistics to sell anything. I really dislike that.

More apologies to the OP for the side track. I'm off to Sydney for a weeks diving today, so I can promise not to do it again.

 

[Stu S.]

I know we may be getting off-topic here, and I apologize to the OP, but anyone who wants to form their own opinion of the ScubLab fin test can watch this video:

ScubaTV

Thanks. Like the man said, they do everything you would do, if you could do it. Obviously, they are not you.

The fit of a product affects performance. Running shoes, hunting bow, baseball bat, and fins work best if they fit correctly, and that's something we have do determine ourselves.

Evaluating what a fin "feels" like is obviously subjective. I'm going out on a limb here and suggesting that there is some muscle and brain memory involved. When you get your first fins, your brain records "this is what a fin feels like". That becomes the reference for finning thereafter.

If you look like you would fit in with the test group, you may get similar results. It is light-gear recreational diving. If you are a different size or shape from this group's average, your results may vary. The test as shown on the TV would represent my Florida diving fairly well, and may be of some use (to me) if selecting a fin.

Maybe not you.

 

[fishwatcher]

I will cast my vote for Mares Volo Powers as well as for the Mares Avanti Quattros. Both are great with alternate kicks and give me the control and stability I need for photography. I find that the Volo Powers work with both the smaller kick recommended for split fins, and the fuller kick recommended for paddle fins.

Occassionally, I've gotten a leg cramp using the Quattros, so I may get a slightly more flexible Avanti Superchannel, which has gotten great reviews and is relatively inexpensive (Open Heel: $100 retail/$90 mail order. Full Foot: $60 mail order). It's nice to be able to try before you buy - whichever fins your considering.

FYI, I spoke with a Mares rep. over the weekend (Beneath the Sea exibition) who described their fins thusly:

Avanti Quattro Excel -- Stiffest and most powerful; for strong legs.
Avanti Quattro -- Stiff and powerful.
Avanti Superchannel -- more flexible, good power.
Volo Power -- most flexible

Raptor -- the Mares enhanced version of Nature's Wing split fin. Mares still believes paddle fins are the way to go, but has produced the Raptor in response to market demand.

Another FYI: He claimed that the low thrust scores acheived by the Excel's in tests were because they weren't being kicked strongly enough and so only a fraction of their power was being used.

 

[Ben_Ayers]

Nice thread! What are the pro's and con's of open vs. closed foot fins? I weigh about 190lbs/ 6ft, but have weak, thin legs. Should I go with a more flexible fin?
Thanks,
Ben

 

[meesier42]

Nice thread! What are the pro's and con's of open vs. closed foot fins? I weigh about 190lbs/ 6ft, but have weak, thin legs. Should I go with a more flexible fin?
Thanks,
Ben

open heel- pros- easy to add thermal protection, con- you give up the secure connection reducing performance.
closed heel- pros- no need for booties, con- can't add thermal protection

Based on the most objective and scientific data available (performed at the University of Buffalo, not Rodales) they stated that the most efficient fins are the fins that are short, flexible, and have very high rebound. They went on to say that none of the fins they tested met all 3 criteria. The fins that they did not test are the ones that were specifically designed to meet these criteria, they are called ForceFins. They should work beautifully for you. I recommend either the Pro ForceFin or the TanDelta ForceFin.