What type of training...

[MXGratefulDiver]

Funny thing is I was thinking about this just a few days ago... have a read... Doppler's Tech Diving Blog

Steve, I read your article. What you're talking about is how to approach making a significant change in equipment. Of course, most divers would recognize that you need to simplify your dive plans until you're acclimated to the gear. And when the change involves adjusting your mindset ... such as when you start diving in a different environment ... the same logic applies.

But that wasn't what I was referring to. All other things being equal, do you put the same degree of effort into planning a 150-foot dive that you did when you first started doing them? I don't ... especially not on a dive I've done multiple times. Give me a bottom time and I can tell you right off the top of my head what gas we'll use, what the profile will look like, and how much deco time will be involved. I will even be able to tell you within 100 psi or so how much backgas and deco gas I can plan to consume.

That doesn't mean I take the dive lightly ... just that I don't consider it particularly difficult.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Trace Malinowski]

People die on 20-foot dives ... sometimes even experienced people. That's not what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is people who overthink, overprepare, and work themselves up into believing something is harder than it really is.

I did a dive not too long ago with a fellow who told me he practiced for two years before taking a class that would let him do a 140-foot dive.

Two years ...

Perhaps you chose to ignore the part where I said pay attention, and prepare yourself.

There's a difference between being smug and being realistic. Talking yourself into overcomplicating a dive is almost as bad as not taking it seriously enough ...

... Bob (Grateful DIver)

Bob,

I read the part about paying attention and preparing. The smug factor enters the equation when the brain says, "It's just a ..."

"... 20 foot dive."

"... Tech 1 dive."

"... warm water wreck and I'm a NJ wreck diver."

"... dive in Ginnie Springs."

"... easy dive that's not that difficult."

That's not to say that one needs to make it complicated like the single-minded divers described in the beginning of Steve's blog. It's also not to say that one needs to plan it or think about in the same manner as a dive that diver perceives as more demanding or complicated.

What I'm saying is that the moment you think that a dive, "is just a" it becomes a time to visualize exactly what you are not respecting about it. I wasn't saying you don't think or plan or respect. What I meant was that, in general, even with the best of intentions all of us are capable of being smug. The more smug we are, and the more complicated, risky or deceptively easy a dive is, the more prone we are to putting the first link in the accident chain.

 

[gitterdun]

Funny thing.. I was on a "benign" quarry dive the other day, when one of the people I was diving with had a real-life emergency, that I had to help to take care of. I'm really glad I was on my game, as the outcome could have been different.

I do understand what you are saying, Bob, about overthinking and overplanning, and I don't think that's what we are referring to, talking about a "benign" dive. I once had a buddy that would overthink and overplan x 10, and.. well... he is no longer diving. The stress got to him too much.

The point that a couple of us were making, was that no dive is "benign," even if you've done it a hundred times over. Once someone thinks of it that way, it becomes dangerous... even if it's not as difficult as the first 50 times you did it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob,

I read the part about paying attention and preparing. The smug factor enters the equation when the brain says, "It's just a ..."

"... 20 foot dive."

"... Tech 1 dive."

"... warm water wreck and I'm a NJ wreck diver."

"... dive in Ginnie Springs."

"... easy dive that's not that difficult."

That's not to say that one needs to make it complicated like the single-minded divers described in the beginning of Steve's blog. It's also not to say that one needs to plan it or think about in the same manner as a dive that diver perceives as more demanding or complicated.

What I'm saying is that the moment you think that a dive, "is just a" it becomes a time to visualize exactly what you are not respecting about it. I wasn't saying you don't think or plan or respect. What I meant was that, in general, even with the best of intentions all of us are capable of being smug. The more smug we are, and the more complicated, risky or deceptively easy a dive is, the more prone we are to putting the first link in the accident chain.

I understand where you're coming from ... but ...

Nowhere did I say or suggest those things. Please show me where I said "it's just a" anything (you can't, because I didn't).

I think you read something in my post that you wanted to see, rather than what was actually there. Perhaps you should read it again and try to comprehend what I actually said before you accuse me of being a Smug Alert type diver.

I find the implication rather offensive, truth to tell ...

... Bob

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Funny thing.. I was on a "benign" quarry dive the other day, when one of the people I was diving with had a real-life emergency, that I had to help to take care of. I'm really glad I was on my game, as the outcome could have been different.

I do understand what you are saying, Bob, about overthinking and overplanning, and I don't think that's what we are referring to, talking about a "benign" dive. I once had a buddy that would overthink and overplan x 10, and.. well... he is no longer diving. The stress got to him too much.

The point that a couple of us were making, was that no dive is "benign," even if you've done it a hundred times over. Once someone thinks of it that way, it becomes dangerous... even if it's not as difficult as the first 50 times you did it.

I get your drift ... the thinking that leads to complacency has no place in diving.

But yeah, I was referring to the level of stress that comes from overthinking a dive. It leads to making small problems seem bigger and more complex than they really are. Lot of times it just leads to people freaking out over something they could've easily resolved.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Dive-aholic]

I think most (good) instructors would feel the same. But being a student in a class context invites second guessing. It's something that I find hard to ignore.

True. However, good instructors can also (most of the time) get around that and present their students with scenarios in such a way that they almost forget they are in a class. It's not always easy to do but it's not impossible.

 

[Blackwood]

True. However, good instructors can also (most of the time) get around that and present their students with scenarios in such a way that they almost forget they are in a class. It's not always easy to do but it's not impossible.

Maybe, maybe not.

Let me give you a real world example (real as in this actually happened, not as in it was a "real dive").

During a class, as a team of three we were swimming along waiting for 'stuff to start happening.' One of the first instances was a non-fixable right post failure. In a real life situation, that would - to me - be a dive turner. However, I knew that what the instructor wanted to see was whether we as a team were able to keep track of failures (e.g. when one team mate goes OOG, he knows not to go to the guy who's right post is shut down).

I made the conscious decision to act as I would in a real situation. I signaled turn around, but the instructor stopped me and indicated that we were to keep going.

It's stuff like 'how many failures can you take' that throw me for a loop. I can take a lot, but in real life I'd thumb it WAY earlier.

Know what I mean?

 

[rjack321]

This is just poor and unrealistic setup. Which goes back to my point about designing scenarios effectively to be instructional.

Maybe, maybe not.

Let me give you a real world example (real as in this actually happened, not as in it was a "real dive").

During a class, as a team of three we were swimming along waiting for 'stuff to start happening.' One of the first instances was a non-fixable right post failure. In a real life situation, that would - to me - be a dive turner. However, I knew that what the instructor wanted to see was whether we as a team were able to keep track of failures (e.g. when one team mate goes OOG, he knows not to go to the guy who's right post is shut down).

I made the conscious decision to act as I would in a real situation. I signaled turn around, but the instructor stopped me and indicated that we were to keep going.

It's stuff like 'how many failures can you take' that throw me for a loop. I can take a lot, but in real life I'd thumb it WAY earlier.

Know what I mean?

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I understand where you're coming from ... but ...

Nowhere did I say or suggest those things. Please show me where I said "it's just a" anything (you can't, because I didn't).

I think you read something in my post that you wanted to see, rather than what was actually there. Perhaps you should read it again and try to comprehend what I actually said before you accuse me of being a Smug Alert type diver.

I find the implication rather offensive, truth to tell ...

... Bob

I apologize if I offended you. I think we are having a misunderstanding because I in no way intended to insult you.

Re-reading your post, I can see where I was in error. That'll teach me to multi-task while washing gear.

We can either work it out in PM, let it go, or pull the related posts.

 

[rjack321]

I apologize if I offended you. I think we are having a misunderstanding because I in no way intended to insult you.

Re-reading your post, I can see where I was in error. That'll teach me to multi-task while washing gear.

We can either work it out in PM, let it go, or pull the related posts.

Guys, please just let it go. Misunderstandings happen, no biggie, we all move on. Pulling a third of the thread would be a loss.