What type of BC for instructors?

[ElectricZombie]

leadweight once bubbled...
A professional does what he has to do.

A professional does not compromise his safety or efficiency by using a piece of gear that he does not believe is adequate. (Whatever that gear may be, not necessarily a BP.)

You should not have to settle for anything less.

An Instructor should be able to use any BC but, that's not the point.

What kind of example would I be giving if I showed up in sloppy, poorly fitting gear? That would totally contradict all the lectures that stress proper trim, etc.

Sure, I want the dive shop to do well but, I'm not going to compromise my morals just so they can sell the latest "do all" BC.

It would certainly be easier if the dive shop started carrying the gear I use, than me teaching poor technique.

Dive shops will recommend whatever gear they can make the most money on, not what actually works the best.

I can't be a part of them leading people down the wrong paths.

 

[leadweight]

This is a great response, I hope the rest of the instructors around here read this.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
leadweight,

I of course agree that it isn't all about gear. However, the way many shops teach and the equipment used for student is IMO is very much about gear and gear sales. A diver can be safe and responsible in a jacket even though I don't think it's the best choice. I also believe that an instructor can teach responsibly using jackets but they will certainly be using the trim pockets, tank weights and all manor of little tricks. I usually just see belts with a bunch of lead on them.

I also believe that divers can be given a much better start than many get without a overly long or demanding class. A little more practice time, the introduction of a few ideas that are often left out and a little more attention to detail will usually get the most important things done IMO.

One popular opinion that I strongly disagree with though is the idea that the biggest result of poor skills is wasted air. Poor skills, specifically buoyancy control figure prominently in accidents. While the incedent rate is still seemingly low I believe that most are easily avoidable. If an injury is easily avoidable and we chose not to avoid it is it par for the course because there aren't many of them or is it a crime because we didn't bother to do our job? The basic skills are not hard to become reasonably proficient in and I think the industry as a whole is doing a disservice by not conveying the importance of them. We whitewash it by saying driving is more dangerous and diving is as dangerous as bowling. Maybe as far as incedent rates that is true but I have never seen someone spit out their lungs in a bowling alley.

My real point here is that given the state of in dive training there aren't many shop owners who I would want teaching advice from. I do have a tendancy to associate the jacket to the jacka$$ and that view is a little extreme but seems to fit often enough.

 

[mth71]

This reply is meant mainly for ElectricZombie, but to everyone who replied. Thank you for the advice, it's pretty much what I was hoping to hear.

There are many good arguments to both sides of the issue, but I am in agreement more with ElectricZombie. I believe that an instructor should use the type of equipment that he or she is comfortable in and believes to be the best. Yes, there are different tools for different tasks, but, except for the non-quickrelease harness of the BP/wings setup, I don't think the students would be confused (even if students wear jackets while instructor where's wings). Personally, I probably would have liked to have been at least introduced to a wings setup during my training, in part because my training rig had a considerable amount of body squeeze which almost took the fun away from the class. Of course, I believe than an instructor should be able to teach in different equipment, but that flexibility and ability should not override his/her personal preference. If PADI does not let me take my instructor exam in my BP/wings, then I'll just look for another diving agency. I refuse to buy two sets of equipment if the only reason I had to was to satisfy their requirements. Does anyone know NAUI's stance on the issue? Wait, don't answer that, that's for another thread.

I have my own beliefs on how a shop should advertise it's equipment, realizing that they are in business to make money, but they also have the responsibility to sell high quality life-support systems. Without getting into any of that, I'm just happy to report that I spoke with my LDS yesterday, and they fully support allowing me to teach with a BP/wings. They are, in fact, a certified Halcyon dealer, even though they don't keep any in stock (unfortunately).

One more thing: I certainly didn't want to turn this thread into another BP/wings vs. everything else argument. I've already done my research, so I know about both sides of the story. I just wanted to find out, from instructors who have actually taught with a BP/wings setup, what their experiences were. I don't want speculation on how someone*thinks students *might* feel, but I wanted real world feedback, and I think I got that. Thank you. I have now made me decision, and plan on purchasing my Halcyon 27 lb. wing in about a month (still don't know what kind of plate, though).

Thanks to all who've participated in this thread...both to those who are for and (heaven forbid!) against my chosen setup (i.e., BP/wings). Thank you.

mth71

 

[ElectricZombie]

mth71 once bubbled...
Does anyone know NAUI's stance on the issue?

NAUI will let you use whatever gear you wish while taking a class yourself or teaching one.

I wouldn't deal with any agency that told me what to use either.

 

[leadweight]

this is a strange thead. A new diver wants to become an instructor. Ordinarily, one would think that the first order of business would be to get through the hundred or so dives required, rescue, DM and instructor training. A long haul. However, this diver has become infected with the desire to dive in a BP&W. One should reasonably assume this is really about whether if he buys the BP&W now, will he be able to use it later when he is an instructor?

Things go off into a discussion of whether shops will require that their gear be used, whether any instructor should work for such a shop or even if any training agency would have a problem with this. What about trim, bouyancy control and widespread deficiencies in new divers skills. There are also concerns about removing a continuous harness in rescue exercises or whether using a tech setup will confuse students in their jackets. No one even mentioned what the instructor schools approach will be.

But, there is a much simpler anwer. I may not be a BP&W kind of guy, but if that is the kind of gear that will make you happy, don't buy something else. That would be a real waste of money. If somewhere down the road a shop wants you to teach in a jacket, make the decision about working there after becomming an instructor when you are more informed. If they make you teach in a Jacket, they will probably sell you one so cheap that the cost is not a consideration. In other words, buying gear now and what you will teach in later are really two separate issues.

 

[mth71]

Leadweight,

That was a great reply. Perhaps it does seem odd that a new diver is immediately thinking about being an instructor instead of simply enjoying diving. With me, when I do something and really enjoy it, I can tell right away how far I'll want to carry it - it was the same thing with me for skydiving and flying (though I'm not on instructor of either yet, but I know that I will continue in both of those activities for the rest of my life). I'm not trying to hurry up and get my instructor certification for the sake of getting it, I just can't wait til I'm able to teach people about what I love to do (even though I still only have 5 dives). So right away I just want to be sure that you don't think I have my priorities messed up - I will always be a safe and competent diver, and instructor.

As for the BP&W infection, I admit it, it's true, but that comes from doing *lots* of research and discussion with people on this board. I started out with my mind set on a particular brand of gear (SeaQuest at the time, with Oceanic my 2nd choice), but then reading a bunch of these threads has caused me to rethink the situation, and with the information that I have right now, I am 99% sure that I want a BP&W setup to be my first, and possibly only, gear purchase.

One should reasonably assume this is really about whether if he buys the BP&W now, will he be able to use it later when he is an instructor?

That is exactly the question I have (or had)! And for the most part, I believe it was answered thoroughly (with a few side roads).

What about trim, bouyancy control and widespread deficiencies in new divers skills. There are also concerns about removing a continuous harness in rescue exercises or whether using a tech setup will confuse students in their jackets.

Excellent points! I was (am?) mainly concerned with the ability of my diver buddy to remove me from my harness (which won't be a problem if I do what I should always do - make sure that my dive buddy is completely familiar with my equipment, and me with his or hers). You have also stated my main concern about teaching in different kinds of equipment - how will the student comprehend it? Again, I believe I have received the answers I was looking for by the good folks on this board.

Of course I will still have lots of practice in the basics of diving that I need to master, especially before I become a diver, which is one reason I decided upon a BP&W.

But, there is a much simpler anwer. I may not be a BP&W kind of guy, but if that is the kind of gear that will make you happy, don't buy something else. That would be a real waste of money. If somewhere down the road a shop wants you to teach in a jacket, make the decision about working there after becomming an instructor when you are more informed. In other words, buying gear now and what you will teach in later are really two separate issues.

Another excellent point! You must be reading my mind. I do want to get what I feel most comfortable with buying, right now, even if I have to use something else later on.

Thanks so much for posting your thoughts, Leadweight, they pretty much parallel my very own. I guess after reading all the replies, both on this thread and others, I feel confident with my decsion(s), even if they aren't perfect.

mth71

 

[leadweight]

Your comments are appreciated mth71. I am trying to find a different way of looking at these things. Have fun. I just talked to a young lady who started work at the ole LDS recently. She recently became an instructor and was very excited about her new job. Live that excitement.

 

[-=ScubA FizZ=-]

Page 44 of the latest "Sport Diver" mag has a two page picture of a class entering the water equiped that way. Can anyone explain it? BTW, notice the guy on the left his jacket soesn't even fit. Look at the giant weight belts. Do you see or expect to see any other balast that would allow proper balance?

I noticed that too!

Here is another screw-up in that same issue. Check out the CoCo View ad on page 13. I know that the pic is a reverse negative, but you would think that the editors would catch it (unless there is some new standard for reg/hose routing).

-=FizZ=-

 

[MSP Rescue Diver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Off the subject most students I see these days have their alternates and gauges dangling. Most of the divers I see on TV are this way. All the pictures and film I have from resorts show most divers this way.

I am in no way condoning danglies, as it was drilled into us during our classes that you should never have anything hanging that can damage the reef.

However when I took the resort course that first peak my interest, and later the classes for my OW, the equipment we used was not exactly in pristine condition. The console and octo clips were long gone from the BC's. During my OW classes, about half the BC's had snorkel keepers to keep the octo's attached. We were told to tuck the console hoses through the velcro pocket flaps.

From classes I've seen at the beach, or on the charters here, the condition of rental/instructional equipment always leaves something to be desired.

Marc

 

[scubajoe]

No one has mentioned our friend/enimy chlorine. The ideal solution is to have the gear you dive in and a set to teach in. My gear looks poolish, all the straps have went from black to orange! The answer is the "key man" or whatever program the manufacturers have to promote their pruducts. Some will sell instructors gear for less then the dive shops pay for it! If you spend lots of time in the pool you will need two sets.
As for the rescue course it should be real world. If it isn't find one that is. It would be nice if accident victims all had the same gear but I don't think that will happen.