What makes us think we can trust any of them

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Ears sense relative depth.I can feel a couple feet up or down.I can't tell how deep I am.

Diving with references that change site to site?Inshore I can have brown water from the St.Johns,green water with organic junk and clear green water all in a dive to 50' locally.Not to mention currents that vary as much as a 1/2 knot between bottom and surface.Offshore you can occasionally see bottom in 150'but normal vis is 50' with very little debris or organic junk in the water.My computer remains constant.Not that I don't rely on references just I find them less reliable than a computer.

In the mentioned FUBAR situation most divers will revert back to thier "security blanket"that's always provided them with a constant source of info.I agree divers should be more cognizant of thier surroundings but IMO it ain't likely to occur anytime soon.
 
100days-a-year:
Ears sense relative depth.I can feel a couple feet up or down.I can't tell how deep I am.
Agreed. Once you equalize you set a new starting reference point. I was just contrasting how gunk in water is very fast, very senstive indicator but is subject to being totally screwed up by an up or downwelling, whereas the ears don't get fooled by up/downcurrents.

A smart diver uses all his senses and all his instruments. I use envirionmental cues (eyes, ears, water motion on my face) over the short term, and the computer depth/time over the longer term. What works for me isn't necessarily ideal for everyone else.
 
Uncle Pug:
Slightly off topic but since the issue was raised... ascent indicators introduce unnecessary hysteresis. Beyond that and IMO even more important to consider:

Using an ascent indicator and/or alarm to assist in controlling ascent will, for the majority of divers keep them from ever developing the skill to do so without it.

For those who have developed the ability to control their ascent going back to computer assisted ascent indicator/alarm will most likely prove to be skill-degrading.

This will probably be of no consequence until something goes sideways in a dive and the diver's attention is diverted from the indicator and the alarm only adds to the confusion (if heard at all.)

Being able to sense your position in the water column and automatically control it while your attention is demanded by other matters is not a trivial skill.

Shallow water practice of neutral bouyancy with your eyes closed greatly facilitates learning to sense small changes in depth. Practice managing multiple tasks under pressure while maintaining position and depth takes it to the next level. Multitasking under pressure with your eyes closed takes it a step beyond that.

Perhaps, but maybe my sinuses and eustaian tubes etc. aren't the same as yours or even "typical", but I do not have any medical condition to contraindicate diving.

I doubt I could have used your methods to any degree of success on our recent rip to Saba while performing the pinnacle dives for example. Fairly quick descents were in order due to the diving style for the pinnacles and as a result I only did a few of these type dives due to not clearing adequately for my physiology on a descent. All ascents and any later descents I made during the trip were all performed with assistance from the mooring line even when on the lee side of Statia and checks made of the ascent meter when ascending.

While what you mention is agreed not a trivial skill I am unsure whether you are indicating anyone using other means should not be diving.

Diving Preacher, you may want to check the detail of your dive computer's ascent alarm settings. FYI, the first alarm setting on the TUSA IQ-700 is at 50% of the max "safe" speed for the depth range so there is ample warning during the approach to safe speed. If the "safe speed" is exceeded, all the segments are made visual and a separate "Slow" graphic is displayed. Thus, it is possible to have an audible alarm associated with ascent speed without actually exceeding the DC's "safe speed" for that depth. If it only alarmed when the speed was exceeded and not prior, it wouldn't allow opportunity for adjustment of your speed. This would be about as useful as a radar detector that beeped to warn you at the same time the patrol car's top lights illuminate your rear view mirror - and was the basis for somprevious generation ascent alarm programming.

UP, I'd be happy to chat off-line or via PM on the hysteresis issue you raised. I would like to revew the data and assist with my input from formal education and experience in control devices and human machine interface.

I would tend to agree with Charlie99's last paragraph above this post. The whole is more than the sum of its parts.

I have mentioned before I am a data freak and lack of data would increase my personal discomfort more, when discussing use of SPG's with double tanks, and I have posted I do use redundant electronic devices. But this still doesn't preclude use of a mooring line in my case just because I carry electronics.
 
WarmWaterDiver:
While what you mention is agreed not a trivial skill I am unsure whether you are indicating anyone using other means should not be diving.
That would be an unwarranted assumption. However I will say that one should reconsider doing dives that require such skill to stay alive and/or avoid injury should things go awry... specificially divers who are doing planned decompression dives.

Additionally it is a great skill to have. How many stories have we heard of recreational divers *losing* bouyancy control and shooting to the surface when something went sideways on the dive... or even in training scenarios.

UP, I'd be happy to chat off-line or via PM on the hysteresis issue you raised.
I have no objection to receiving PMs but a private discussion seems like such a waste... if the information is valuable it should be shared. Perhaps you could start a thread on the hysteresis issue.
 
No problem - send me the data you have documented on the hystersis issue you mentioned and I'll be happy to look it over - or I guess post it if you don't want to send it. I just thought an alternate medium might serve beter for data transmission, such as maybe an Excel spreadsheet, rather than putting the numbers in a forum thread post.

I have no problem with anecdotal stories either. However, I'm not sure how the use of an ascent rate indicator routinely while diving directly influenced the divers shooting to the surface when something went sideways as you've mentioned, even in training scenarios. I'm open to reviewing that data and correlation as well.

I'm here to help.

But I don't see this issue of routine use of an ascent rate indicator as much different than use of a speedometer routinely while driving my vehicle. I can operate the vehicle without it, as was the case when the link for all the dashboard instruments developed a fault and I drove it to the shop to have that addressed, but I also routinely make use of the speeedometer's info during routine driving. I don't consider myself a driver with poor skills for using such info - but I also never said being able to operate without this info would not be a useful skill.

I can start a new thread if you wish; I'll put the words hysteresis and Uncle Pug in the title, and exit this thread. I'm at a bit of a loss on the appropriate forum to start that in though - you tell me where you want it and I'll start it. Thanks.
 
This thread continues to wander in fascinating directions . . . please do go on, somewhere, with a discussion of ascent rate indicators and hysteresis, now that I have looked up hysteresis and know what it means :)

What the most efficient feedback is to allow the diver to control ascent rate would be very interesting information.
 
Uncle Pug:
...
Using an ascent indicator and/or alarm to assist in controlling ascent will, for the majority of divers keep them from ever developing the skill to do so without it.

For those who have developed the ability to control their ascent going back to computer assisted ascent indicator/alarm will most likely prove to be skill-degrading.

...
Using a regulator to assist in underwater swimming will, for the majority of divers, keep them from ever developing the skill to do so without it.

For those who have developed the ability to freedive, going back to regulators will most likely prove to be skill-degrading.


Where do you draw the line, Uncle Pug?

Do you do a CESA on every ascent so that your skills will not degrade?

I prefer to continue to use the tools available to me to make my diving easier. An ascent rate meter is one of those very nice tools, like a regulator.

In the two cases out of about 310 (since I started using a computer) in which I have had to ascend without a rate meter I had no problem keeping my ascent slow and controlled, despite not having sharply tuned and constantly practiced skills.

Considering that you keep precise awareness of your time, and have acute awareness of your rates of descent and ascent, and prefer to constantly do calculations in your head rather than let an instrument do it for you, don't you really think it's unnecessary to continue to carry that depth gauge?

Where do you draw the line?


TSandM:
...
What the most efficient feedback is to allow the diver to control ascent rate would be very interesting information.
For my most common diving situation, drift diving in South Florida, frequently ascending without visual reference to the bottom, the surface, or a line, the most efficient feedback is provided by an instrument that keeps track of time and change in depth, i.e., the ascent rate indicator on my computer. I can adjust to its hysteresis (I had to look it up twice).
 
TSandM:
What the most efficient feedback is to allow the diver to control ascent rate would be very interesting information.
What are the most efficient feeback mechanisms you use in daily (non-diving) life that allow you to multitask... even taking care of critical situations under stress? How are you oriented?

On another note in the same song:

Spatial and situation awareness are easier for some than others but most can improve if they find out there is such a thing as being aware and if they tune in.
 
DivesWithTurtles:
In the two cases out of about 310 (since I started using a computer) in which I have had to ascend without a rate meter I had no problem keeping my ascent slow and controlled, despite not having sharply tuned and constantly practiced skills.

Most folks I know wouldn't have a problem doing that. However most folks I know (at least before getting tuned in) have not been able to do that when task loaded and/or presented with an emergent situation.

In fact... sometimes all it took was an OOA drill thrown at them. :D

Would you have had no problem keeping your ascent slow and controlled in either of those two cases if you were presented with an additional task (replacing a dropped mask with the spare you carry in your pocket) or an emergency situation such as air sharing?
 
DivesWithTurtles:
Using a regulator to assist in underwater swimming will, for the majority of divers, keep them from ever developing the skill to do so without it.

For those who have developed the ability to freedive, going back to regulators will most likely prove to be skill-degrading.


Where do you draw the line, Uncle Pug?
I don't know about him, but I draw the line at excessive reliance upon depth gauges and bottom timers. Depth Gauges Rot Yer Brain

You may have to read the next few posts after the linked post to get everything in perspective,and then go back and read it again to see the other perspective. :).
 

Back
Top Bottom