What is your opinion on Force Fins?

[OldNSalty]

My issue is with the use of the term 'classified'-it just sounds odd as product testing fails to meet the standard.

just my 2 cents and off topic anyway.

 

[Web Monkey]

"Your request (censored) if disclosed, is likely to cause substantial harm to Force Fins competitors and were determined exempt from disclosure under title 5, United States Code, Section 552(b)(4)."

Direct quote from correspondence from Department of Naval Research in response to Freedom of Information Request surrounding study. No agreements were made with us before testing. I doubt they were with any other company.

Oddly enough, I find that more than a little hard to believe, especially since the contract number, which could not possibly cause any harm to anybody, and is necessary in order to verify the claim, was censored also.

Terry

 

[OldNSalty]

Here is USC, Sec 552(b) paragraph 4

(4) trade secrets and commercial or financial information obtained from a person and privileged or confidential;

The entire USC can be found on the web here

Title 5 United States Code

But what this is telling me when they say they do not wish to release the info because it could cause damage to force fins competitors is that they are not releasing the information because of the results of the test as FF would have us believe but because by doing so they would give FF info about the other competitor technology.

In other words, the DoN is not worried that the public would read the test results and stop buying anything but FF, they were worried about releasing trade secrets TO FF about the other companies-clever marketing indeed.

 

[Susanne]

Oddly enough, I find that more than a little hard to believe, especially since the contract number, which could not possibly cause any harm to anybody, and is necessary in order to verify the claim, was censored also.

Terry

Terry,

Why would I quote a quote that is not a quote? The background story might clear this up. It was published in "Aquacorps" Magazine and a reprint of it is on the author, Chris Kostman's site: adventurecorps.com

 

[ZzzKing]

Sort of like the question(from the Little Rascals) who's better Flash Gordon or Tarzan???

Obviously, it was Flash Gordon.

NO! WAIT! Tarzan had that big knife and the hot chick in the leather mini...

 

[Web Monkey]

Terry,

Why would I quote a quote that is not a quote? The background story might clear this up. It was published in "Aquacorps" Magazine and a reprint of it is on the author, Chris Kostman's site: adventurecorps.com

OK . . .

So I called up the researchers, and although they had the release from the Navy to publish the results, they didn't feel that they should just release the results without the Navy's permission

. . .

So I did, and then it came back and they denied us access to the records because there may be trade secrets involved and the information contained in this research may be detrimental to our competitors!

"may be trade secrets in involved" isn't a legal justification for denying access to a FOI request. Actual trade secrets may be, but according to the DOJ, even that is only good for 10 years, so regardless of what was going on in 1991, they should have no problem releasing it now.

Terry

 

[Susanne]

OK . . .



"may be trade secrets in involved" isn't a legal justification for denying access to a FOI request. Actual trade secrets may be, but according to the DOJ, even that is only good for 10 years, so regardless of what was going on in 1991, they should have no problem releasing it now.

Terry

The text and graph from the Force Fin section of the study is directly quoted uncensored, except that we identified the other fins, those that tested the best out of 15 studied as A & F, on our website at navy_study

The remainder of the 3" thick report was related to other matters. If my memory serves me, other equipment and training too.

 

[Susanne]

Here is USC, Sec 552(b) paragraph 4

(4) trade secrets and commercial or financial information obtained from a person and privileged or confidential;

The entire USC can be found on the web here

Title 5 United States Code

But what this is telling me when they say they do not wish to release the info because it could cause damage to force fins competitors is that they are not releasing the information because of the results of the test as FF would have us believe but because by doing so they would give FF info about the other competitor technology.

My recollection is that they did not want "the enemy" to find out that "short floppy fins are more efficient than long stiff fins". The background story might clear this up. It was published in "Aquacorps" Magazine and a reprint of it is on the author, Chris Kostman's site: adventurecorps.com

 

[OldNSalty]

Susanne,

We will have to respectfully agree to disagree on what the Navy was trying to say and how FF took their message. Again, I don’t doubt that some people have found them to be a great fin and I hope to give them a try someday myself. Who knows, I could be your next convert.

~KH

 

[Susanne]

Susanne,

We will have to respectfully agree to disagree on what the Navy was trying to say and how FF took their message. Again, I don’t doubt that some people have found them to be a great fin and I hope to give them a try someday myself. Who knows, I could be your next convert.

~KH

I suppose you would have had to have been there...... I'm just quoting.... It was one of the more memorable, and funnier of the Force Fin adventures, and building this business we have had quite a few.

Look forward to hearing about when you join us other Force Finners.