What is the real difference in the training

[Potapko]

I took this quote from another running thread because it struck me the wrong way.

"Again, as TS&M said... not many potential divers, shopping for their entry-level courses, appreciate the difference between high and low quality tuition. Pricing is critical in this respect... and that is the enemy of independents and the small local dive centre."


Then it was stated that a new diver could either be trained by a quality instructor or become a "Mcdiver" with an agency.


I am really interested in the reasoning behind this. Some will flame me... well flame on!

My point is that I was trained in a foreign country in a foreign language. Oh, I had the manual in English but the instructor spoke no English at all. I read the book, picked up what I could in the classroom from my 9 months of Czech language study, then we jumped in the water and I followed the instructions of the instructor by watching what he did. He is an average instructor but a very good diver.

However I never expected him to do much more than to introduce me to the sport, show me how to set-up and use the equipment, and how not to kill myself. I am saying that in my opinion, open water training is an introduction to the sport that enabled me to go diving and begin the learning process. It is really no more than one step beyond "discover scuba".

Now, 8 years later I have learned a few more things, but only because I had the interest and desire to further my training and experience. Without that desire I would be no more than someone who took a course once but never dives.

You can't give it all to them at one time. ​

 

[VooDooGasMan]

Yes you can, as devon mention on another thread Padi was formed to break dive Instruction into small classes and that is why there are so many divers Dying, they will not take AOW, Rescue, etc.

The only Best way is how it was done from the beginning.

 

[DevonDiver]

You can't give it all to them at one time.​

Why not?

The current 'en-vogue' modular system of education merely represents a clever marketing ploy to increase inbound diver certifications. Bite-size lumps are more convenient to vacation divers and more affordable to the masses. There's no quality issue with its selection as the chosen structure by the 'main' agencies.

I agree that novice divers shouldn't be over-loaded. However, 'over-loading' is a product of learning volume measured against time.

So... you can't give it all to them at one time on a short course designed to be sold at the cheapest price, shortest duration and thus, highest profit...

But you can give it all to them on a course of adequate duration to include all of the necessary training to make them a fully functional, competent and confident independent diver.

If we (the scuba industry) are going to sell courses on the basis that they train people to become "independent scuba divers qualified to dive to X depth without professional supervision", then we should honour that commitment. IMHO, far too few professionals do honour that...

 

[Garrobo]

The reason we are starting out as MacDivers is because the extended first training would be so expensive that fewer people would want to pay for it. This would drive a lot of shops and manufacturers out of business because they depend on a steady flow of new divers training and buying equipment to stay alive. Personally I hired an instructor for a few days within a month of recieving my OW cert and got some much needed experience and instructions. I'd recommend it to everyone who just came off of the usual OW cert process. As far as AOW goes, in my opinion, it is just a cash cow for the dive shops and agencies. Pretty much a waste of time and money unless you get with an interested someone who will really go through it with you.

 

[Peter Guy]

OP -- I agree with you 100%. One thing that is perhaps wrong with the current model is something that a Course Director (someone who teaches people to become an instructor) said to me a while ago -- "Too many people are becoming instructors who don't know how to dive themselves."

In your case, you said you learned by watching your instructor -- and, quite frankly, that is really how I teach my students to dive, by trying to be the best model I can be AND having assistents who are also very good models. IF you have never seen someone dive well, how can we (the "professionals") expect people we teach to dive well?

As a number of instructors have discussed, it doesn't take any longer to teach someone to dive well as it does to teach someone to dive poorly. The problem is getting the instructor corps to understand what it means to be able to dive well.

(How is that for a cynical POV? )

 

[boulderjohn]

In your case, you said you learned by watching your instructor -- and, quite frankly, that is really how I teach my students to dive, by trying to be the best model I can be AND having assistents who are also very good models. IF you have never seen someone dive well, how can we (the "professionals") expect people we teach to dive well?

When I became a certified coach by the USVBA, that fact was drilled into me by my instructor. He said--and subsequent experience showed it to be true--that students learn primarily through imitation. They will pick out a role model and try to do whatever that person is doing. He said that if you as the coach cannot do the skill well, don't even try to demonstrate it (if possible). Lacking a good role model in a coach, they will imitate someone else. He said that when he and his fellow coaches work summer high school camps, they can often pick out the campers who are from the same high school by the fact that they all have the same bad habits. Sometimes they are able to figure out which of their teammates they are imitating, and by correcting that teammate they can thus often correct all of them.

I once observed a scuba class in which the confined water portion of the class took a total of 9 hours. During that 9 hours, the students never saw the instructor swim more than a few yards on his own. Who were they going to imitate? It would have to be one of their fellow students who seemed to be getting it.

I don't think Peter will mind if I disclose a private observation he made to me last year. He noted that the video skills demonstrations new students see show the instructor on the knees and have no visual images of a skilled diver in the process of diving. That is a very serious error. I relayed that observation to PADI, and they responded that they would immediately begin working on remedying that failure in the next round of instructional materials.

 

[Potapko]

Yes you can, as devon mention on another thread Padi was formed to break dive Instruction into small classes and that is why there are so many divers Dying, they will not take AOW, Rescue, etc.

I don't think that is true at all. Very few people die while diving as a percentage of participants. If I am wrong, post the stats.

Why not?

Because the number of people who are interested enough to endure an extended several month long training course in order to go diving are very few. Many more (like myself) simply want to give it a try. Not do one dive in a pool but do the course to see if they really enjoy it and decide to continue the training.

The current 'en-vogue' modular system of education merely represents a clever marketing ploy to increase inbound diver certifications. Bite-size lumps are more convenient to vacation divers and more affordable to the masses. There's no quality issue with its selection as the chosen structure by the 'main' agencies.

What is at all wrong with "more convenient"? Who are we catering to? The interested individual or the instructor?

I agree that novice divers shouldn't be over-loaded. However, 'over-loading' is a product of learning volume measured against time.

So... you can't give it all to them at one time on a short course designed to be sold at the cheapest price, shortest duration and thus, highest profit...

But you can give it all to them on a course of adequate duration to include all of the necessary training to make them a fully functional, competent and confident independent diver.

As I have stated and others have confirmed. If the requirement had been several months of commitment and 40 hours instead of 2-3 weeks and a few dives, we would not have started at all. So, in light of you next statement, What is the goal of OWD training? Should the expectation be to graduate fully competent divers that can handle all aspects on their own, or divers that know how to set up their gear and plan a dive and learn and grow into competent divers?

The reason we are starting out as MacDivers is because the extended first training would be so expensive that fewer people would want to pay for it. This would drive a lot of shops and manufacturers out of business because they depend on a steady flow of new divers training and buying equipment to stay alive. Personally I hired an instructor for a few days within a month of recieving my OW cert and got some much needed experience and instructions. I'd recommend it to everyone who just came off of the usual OW cert process. As far as AOW goes, in my opinion, it is just a cash cow for the dive shops and agencies. Pretty much a waste of time and money unless you get with an interested someone who will really go through it with you.

Since they would not pay for it and endure the course, do we adjust the training to try and get more people involved? Or do we "hold the line" on training and se the industry go down the tubes? I submit that the only reason the industry is doing as well as it is, is the fact that some agencies have evolved to meet the demand of the consumer.

 

[soltari675]

I will probably get flamed for saying it, but I like the broken down version. I've only been diving for a little over a year, and I see the benefits. Here is how I see it:

You take the OW course and learn about you as a diver in the water. The do's and don'ts. You do some dives to get practice. Becoming more aware of yourself and your equipment. You don't see much when you dive really. You are focused on you.

Then you take the AOW. You learn there are things to do while you're underwater. You learn how you can become not just a diver, but a good diver. You get an introduction to important aspects like deep and navigation, as well as fun options like wreck, search and recovery, etc. Your diving becomes not just you, but all the things around you.

Then you take some courses, but you also take the Rescue course. Now it's not just about you and what you're doing. You learn how to watch out for others in the water as well. By this point you should be competent in the water and comfortable with your equipment. It's still a lot about you and your dives, but you are aware of others and how to prevent bad situations, and handle any that pop up.

All the dives in between are just practice and experience. I think it's wonderful they do it this way. When first got my OW certification, I don't feel that I had the experience, confidence, or practice to feel confident rescuing someone else. I needed that practice focusing on me and my own equipment. Improving my buoyancy and what not. Taking a rescue course at the same time would have been too much. Now, there are some classes I think SHOULD have been included with OW. Peak buoyancy and AOW should all be part of OW as I look back. The things they teach there are very important for all divers. But rescue? Too much.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

You do not have to give all of it at once. But you do have to give enough. What is enough then becomes the question. For some enough is or seems to be being competent enough to be led around by the hand by a professional and not get killed. To me that is totally unacceptable. I expect an OW diver to be capable of what the RSTC says they sould be able to do. And that the member agencies supposedly agree to train to. That is the diver should be able to plan, execute, and safely return from a dive with a buddy of equal training and experience with out the aid of a professional.

To me that means they should know how set up their gear, when to start planning the dive, know how much air they will need - not how much they are supposed to end up with -, know how navigate a basic course, and how to rescue their buddy of they have a problem and how to rescue themselves. The team should also be capable of assisting another diver in trouble. Not have to say wait we need to find a rescue diver while the person in trouble is feeling their life slip away while Moe and Boe OW divers are watching them and doing nothing.

This is not everything. But to me it is the definition of enough. And it is taught in every SEI and NAUI class that I am aware of. As well as PDIC, IANTD, and CMAS. Does it take a bit more time? Yes, and it should! I teach a course that works out to a bit more than 40 hours. 32 hours combined classroom and pool and 2 days of checkouts with 5 scuba dives and a skin dive. Often works out to around 50. And when they are done they do not need a DM to plan their next dives. In fact after checkout dive one they plan the rest with input from me as to times, depths, temps, etc. The same info they would get on a boat where no DM was in the water. And ya know what? They have no problem doing it. They can go the very next weekend into similar conditions (which around here means cold or colder water, poor vis, sometimes difficult entries and exits, and dive. And I do not have to be there. And I'd trust them to take my kids with them and not worry about it.

In fact that is my guage for certification. I ask myself if I'd dive with them and if I'd let my kid or other loved one dive with them. Only when the answer is yes do they get the card sent to them.

As to costing too much more -Bull. I charge the same as most shops around here. And less than some.

 

[Teamcasa]

This is an issue where there is no perfect answer for everyone. People learn at differing rates. Enthusiasm for the sport changes. Access to good mentors is different plus a dozen other factors all contribute to failure of one course/plan for all divers.

He's my short answer; take as many classes as you can afford, dive as often as you can with really good divers and above all, avoid the "let's see how deep we can go!" mindset.