What is the purpose of PADI Junior Divemaster?

[Divin'Papaw]

I recently made a comparison to golf instruction. You are evidently opposed to scuba instructors getting paid for the instruction they provide. Are you also opposed to golf professionals charging for the instruction they provide? After all, charging for the work you do is "primarily to grow revenue."

By the way, do you accept paychecks for the work you do? After all, aren't you just trying to grow revenue, and isn't growing revenue wrong?

Please don't put words in my mouth. That absolutely is not what I said. I have no issue with professionals getting paid for the work they do. I'm talking about the AGENCIES. The money they make OFF of their professionals.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Actually...

I used to work in a shop with a Course Director who had previously worked in one of the biggest dive shops in Florida (no longer in operation). He had the same attitude opposing such programs. Then he had an applicant from one show up, and for reasons I don't recall, he decided to give him a try anyway. He said the guy was really good, one of the best new instructors he had ever seen. Apparently there is a benefit to doing most of your dives in a concentrated period while being constantly critiqued by a veteran instructor trainer.

There is a wide spectrum of CD/IT quality. There's a "platinum" IT in one agency that shouldn't be critiqing much less teaching if you ask me. So, it depends as there isn't much of a skills/quality bar for CDs/ITs (my opinion).

But I'm complete agreement with you on the potential value of this junior DM course. In fact, when I open my own shop, I will put together something similar. It will be GUE fundies like in many respect, an emphasis on identifying passive/active panic before it happens, as well as the things listed in this distinctive specialty course with PADI.

I wish the agencies would separate skills-based con ed vs knowledge-based courses. Ones that would fall into the latter would be nitrox, boat diving, equipment maintenance, underwater photography/videography (yes, I know skills can be part of this, but then there's so much on cameras/lighting/etc). Then let the skills based ones apply to the MSD certification to at least try to make it mean a little bit more.

 

[Divetech Cayman]

Edit: I wrote this post at 7:30 this morning but somehow forgot to hit “post.” Here’s my 2 cents from 10 hours ago.

I am keeping in mind the thread on Agency bashing... what is it and why we don't allow it. I would like to ask if anyone has experience with or opinions about the new PADI "Junior Divemaster" certification. In a junior lifeguard program the trainees would be expected to start serving as lifeguards as soon as they are old enough. Are divers (most of whom are older) going to be interested in being guided by a divemaster who isn't old enough to drink in many countries? The other PADI junior certifications appear to have the same requirements but add restrictions for safety, but this one has reduced requirements as well, so you can't just convert it into the adult cert when you're old enough.

I want to comment on this, as we were one of the dive centers selected to be a beta testers for this program. When we began to market this program, some people felt the need to share their negative comments on it without a full understanding of it.

The term "Divemaster" is what set many of these people off, failing to realize that this is simply a name. Many of the comments I saw were things like "I'm not going to let a 15 year old in the dive boat tell me what to do." or my favorite "I worked hard to become a divemaster, kids should not be allowed to do this."

The name Divemaster in the Junior Divemaster is a name. It's no different than when a US Navy Master Diver, (who worked insanely hard to achieve this rating,) rolls their eyes when they meet a PADI Master Scuba Diver in the bar in Panama City. They both have Master Diver in the name, does this mean they are both qualified the same level? No of course not.

Junior Divemasters have NO professional credentials whatsoever. They are not allowed to crew boats or work professionally. It is simply a program designed to teach youth some work and life skills on responsibility, and foster those who may wish to advance to Divemaster when they are old enough and experienced enough, with a lot of additional training and a complete review process. The comparison to Junior Lifeguard is a good one. No reputable pool or municipality is going to staff their lifeguard chairs with 15 year old Junior Lifeguards.

Many organizations have some way to involve youth into them. A long time ago in my former life, I was police officer. We had a police explorer program where 15 and 16 year old kids among other things, actually went out on patrol with police officers in uniform. This is very common around the country. Were these kids out making arrests and chasing down suspects? Of course not. They were there for college reference letters, life experience and to see if maybe they wanted a career in policing.

To make money!

And yes the program is designed to make money. Divetech, and every other dive operator in the world is not in business for goodwill, we are in business to make money. It's not a lot of money, but it's a living. Say what you want about PADI - we all know the put another dollar in jokes. All training agencies are in the game to make money, and some are better than others. As time has shown us, ultimately what makes a program safe or not is the person teaching the program, and not the program itself.

But programs like this from PADI allow us to keep our doors open which is particularly important right now. If you'd like Grand Cayman dive centers to be open when you return, this is helping.

Someone said earlier, they have an issue with the training agencies making money from the professionals teaching the classes. The training agencies provide a service to us dive professionals - books and class materials, legally defensible standards and procedures. How well do you think some classes would go if the course material were left to the instructors? Some might go ok, but many would be a disaster. These services all have value for us the dive professionals who are trying to make money.

Now you can argue the agencies take too much money, offer too little services in return, don’t care about their members. With some agencies you might be right. Lucky for us there are over 20 to chose from, and we can vote with our wallets if we don’t feel the value is there.

It looks like a great way to give young divers that may want to become professional Divemasters or Instructors a way to gain experience and spend time learning what they need to know, instead of doing a zero to hero course when they turn 18. If that had been available when I was 15 I would have probably gone that route and spent a lot less time partying.

This is spot on.

Tony

 

[boulderjohn]

Please don't put words in my mouth. That absolutely is not what I said. I have no issue with professionals getting paid for the work they do. I'm talking about the AGENCIES. The money they make OFF of their professionals.

Silly me. I thought that when the students took the class, the instructors got paid for it. I didn't realize the instructors were slaves and all the money went to the agency.

So what you are saying is that the agency has created a program that allows local shops and instructors to earn money from students taking the class and you are opposed to that. It may shock you, but as an instructor who is trying to earn a buck at this job, I am glad when the agency does things that help me gain students.

Now, here is something else that will no doubt shock you. No one is going into homes with guns and forcing people to take classes like this, just as no one forced me to take golf lessons. If people don't want those lessons, they won't take them. If people like the idea of those classes and want to take them, why are you so opposed to that? Why do you want to deny those students the opportunity to take a class they want?

 

[Divin'Papaw]

Silly me. I thought that when the students took the class, the instructors got paid for it. I didn't realize the instructors were slaves and all the money went to the agency.

So what you are saying is that the agency has created a program that allows local shops and instructors to earn money from students taking the class and you are opposed to that. It may shock you, but as an instructor who is trying to earn a buck at this job, I am glad when the agency does things that help me gain students.

Now, here is something else that will no doubt shock you. No one is going into homes with guns and forcing people to take classes like this, just as no one forced me to take golf lessons. If people don't want those lessons, they won't take them. If people like the idea of those classes and want to take them, why are you so opposed to that? Why do you want to deny those students the opportunity to take a class they want?

Not sure why you always get snarky and aggressive in defending every new program PADI comes out with? I’m sharing an opinion in response to the OP’s question. Am I not allowed to have an opinion without you trying to put words in my mouth?

I’m out. I don’t need this. You PADI Fanbois can have the thread.

 

[MichaelMc]

You PADI Fanbois can have the thread.

I'm not sure if I was one of those 'Fanbois'? Much of my recent training has been NAUI. They have a Training Assistant recreational rating that allows helping with students in-water in a few ways including escorting divers.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You PADI Fanbois can have the thread.

Am I included in that group?

In all seriousness, this is a beta program. The industry is fairly stagnant, and while I don't think the reasons for such are being addressed to have long term sustainability and health, at least something new is being attempted.

I overall like the idea. And over my dead body is PADI ever going to get another cent from me. However, unless I want to abandon entirely my integrity, I have to be fair when I think that they are attempting something good.

 

[happy-diver]

Yeah at fifteen through the air force cadets, my cousin got a scholarship to learn to fly

When people used to do things and aspire to stuff at a higher level than the Simpsons



Before those that can not, told us we could not
or soured others enthusiasm in their jadedness

 

[Searcaigh]

To those who are currently involved with teaching the Junior DM programme.

What is the process when the diver reaches the age of 18 years?

Do they have to repeat the Rescue Course before continuing to do the "Adult" DM course?

 

[loosenit2]

I am still trying to come to grips with this objection.

Over the decades, I have made attempts to improve my mediocre skill in golf. My wife has done the same. During those years, we having taken, and paid a whole lot for, distinct classes in...

• driving
• iron play
• putting
• chipping

Is that what you mean by "atomization"? If so, can you explain why the golf industry should do away with such instruction and why we are so very foolish for having taken, and paid a whole lot for, those distinct classes?

When you paid for the lessons in golf were they part of a "certification program" or were they just coaching and lessons? I think that is fundamentally where we all get hung up. Scuba courses now are largely structured as certifications, where the certification has some recognizability to other divers and thus value. Hence the objections many have to the structure, especially when "certifications" don't actually have any perceived value or they believe that there should not be a separate "certification" for something. I most often see Peak Performance Buoyance used in this way but you can see the core logic of this type of complaint in a joke about any new specialty, like a bluetooth split-fin distinctive specialty, or bottom kneeling certification.

If Scuba were to model the golf industry there would just be coaching fore hire. if a diver wanted to get better at buoyancy they could hire a scuba coach/instructor for a period of time to coach them on buoyancy with no certification being issued. The drawback to this approach is that 100% of the money would go to the local coach and none to the agency. Looking at it this way I think the reason for the complaints about the current system are evident. I think it is possible that many folks either don't recognize or inherently value the advertising that agencies do to help bring divers to local shops.