What is the purpose of PADI Junior Divemaster?

[wnissen]

First, I am not sure I see why people seem to be objecting to people that age getting that kind of training. If people can explain that, I would appreciate it.

Next, I hope everyone understands the benefit of making such training a part of an approved program. It is the reason why you as an instructor want that cool class you created recognized as a distinctive specialty--liability protection. If you create a program on your own and teach it on your own, if there is an accident on a dive, the burden will be on you to prove that the course requirements were safe and within accepted limits of scuba instruction. If you create a program on your own and get it approved by a dive agency, if there is an accident on a dive, you can point to that approval as evidence that the course was within accepted limits of scuba instruction, and the plaintiff will have a very hard time proving you are wrong.

Thanks very much for pointing out that it is a distinctive specialty. I hadn't noticed that, I thought it was something PADI was rolling out worldwide, but they also don't do a good job, if at all, in distinguishing between "real" PADI courses and ones that are specific to a shop or even an instructor.

I should also clarify that I was not saying that the Junior Divemasters were going to be leading dives, only that they would be ready to once they turned 18, in the way Junior Lifeguards are ready once they turn 16 or whatever the age is. So divers would be lead by someone who was legally an adult but potentially not very experienced in addition to being very young.

But I have thought a lot about what to do with kids during the summer when so many programs are closed down, and it does seem like there is a lot of value to the child that I hadn't fully considered. The price may not be out of line, either, when compared against a Junior Lifeguard program that, at least in my area, charges $200 for five full days of instruction (including CPR). I do appreciate the contributions of everyone here.

 

[MichaelMc]

I should also clarify that I was not saying that the Junior Divemasters were going to be leading dives, only that they would be ready to once they turned 18, in the way Junior Lifeguards are ready once they turn 16 or whatever the age is. So divers would be lead by someone who was legally an adult but potentially not very experienced in addition to being very young.

From the various shop pages, it reads as if at 18 they have to redo various of the practical skills as well so assist with dives. So they: assist as a junior DM student until junior certified, assist as a junior DM until 18, assist as an adult DM student until adult certified. Seems like extra experience not less.

"The EAP, search and recovery scenario and mapping projects all count, but you will need to redo all exercises (this time, timed) and skills, as well as assisting on live training."

 

[boulderjohn]

It's just that there is no end to the atomization of scuba training.

I don't what this means. As I understand the word "atomization," you are saying that a larger whole is being broken into smaller parts. What is that larger whole? It seems to me that these shops are providing young people with an opportunity that they did not have before.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

It seems to me that these shops are providing young people with an opportunity that they did not have before.

I see it as a somewhat formalized way of job trainings for dive shops to hire high schook kids to work after school, weekends, summers. The limitations make complete sense from a liability standpoint. If they do go pro at 18, their experoences can potentially help them become even bettwe dive pros.

 

[boulderjohn]

Yea, yea ... we get it. Really do. It's just that there is no end to the atomization of scuba training. It is what it is.

I am still trying to come to grips with this objection.

Over the decades, I have made attempts to improve my mediocre skill in golf. My wife has done the same. During those years, we having taken, and paid a whole lot for, distinct classes in...

• driving
• iron play
• putting
• chipping

Is that what you mean by "atomization"? If so, can you explain why the golf industry should do away with such instruction and why we are so very foolish for having taken, and paid a whole lot for, those distinct classes?

 

[boulderjohn]

Thanks very much for pointing out that it is a distinctive specialty.

I took the word of someone else earlier in the thread and did not check. If you look at my wording, I compared it in such way to explain that it wouldn't make a difference either way.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

I don't what this means. As I understand the word "atomization," you are saying that a larger whole is being broken into smaller parts. What is that larger whole? It seems to me that these shops are providing young people with an opportunity that they did not have before.

Atomization isn't the best word to use but I couldn't think of a better word. I'm clearly a dinosaur who doesn't support the unending creation of new courses that are primarily intended to drive agency revenue. The agencies will argue that it is to grow the hobby/sport or to meet some currently unmet need. I'm not buying it. It's primarily to grow revenue.

I don't see the point of the Junior Divemaster program other than to milk to "Go Pro" cow from those who are even younger. Does the industry really need Junior Divemasters? It doesn't need the majority of the Divemasters that the industry produces on a yearly basis now. It certainly doesn't need Junior Divemasters.

That is simply my opinion.

 

[boulderjohn]

Atomization isn't the best word to use but I couldn't think of a better word. I'm clearly a dinosaur who doesn't support the unending creation of new courses that is primarily intended to drive agency revenue. The agencies will argue that it is to grow the hobby/sport or to meet some currently unmet need. I'm not buying it. It's primarily to grow revenue.
.

I recently made a comparison to golf instruction. You are evidently opposed to scuba instructors getting paid for the instruction they provide. Are you also opposed to golf professionals charging for the instruction they provide? After all, charging for the work you do is "primarily to grow revenue."

By the way, do you accept paychecks for the work you do? After all, aren't you just trying to grow revenue, and isn't growing revenue wrong?

 

[sea_ledford]

It's just that there is no end to the atomization of scuba training. It is what it is. It's not just PADI. They may have started it but all agencies do it to one extent or another. As someone not "in the business" I'll just shake my head. There is no end to this really.

This is an argument I don't understand, and it comes up regularly. There are certainly mostly useless certifications (boat diving, beach diving, night diving) or classes that are great for teaching skills, but are useless certifications (underwater photography, which I do teach). Then there are the specialties that are valuable and worthwhile, but only apply to people that are diving in that mode (Drysuit, sidemount, any technical diving). Nitrox is the one example that I think really should just be put into an OW class, and most training agencies allow it at this point.

But let's focus on the core progression from Openwater to Instructor.
Option 1: take several classes- OW, Nitrox, AOW, Rescue, Assistant Instructor, DM, Instructor. Hopefully with some diving between.
Option 2: take it all as one big class.
Option 3: what I THINK is what people that make this argument seem to want- combine OW, AOW, Nitrox and rescue plus require 50 dives in that mix, don't care about DM or instructor.

Option 1 is the current standard. Prices for each class range all over the place.If you like a shop and instructor you can take them all at the same place. If you don't, you can bail out and go somewhere else, or switch agencies or just stop doing it for whatever reason. You can move in the middle of it all and start where you left off someplace else. You can do it all in a year or two, or you can take a decade.

Option 2 is a zero to hero course. I'm not sure anyone that is not a zero to hero diver will support this training progression.

Option 3 is, I guess, the "old school" way when there was scuba diver, Divemaster and Instructor, and that was it. But the scuba courses were a month or 6 weeks long several times per week, required some actual physical fitness and a decent amount of watermanship abilities. I would LOVE to teach that class! The classes would cost about $3500 (excluding the cost of the 50 dives), the prerequisite swim test would be fun (for me, not for you), and I probably wouldn't have any takers. Because I'm marketing it to people that are not yet divers! They may like it, they may hate it, they may REALLY REALLY want to do it, but they have dodgy ears and can't. Or they may not have the water comfort or physical fitness to pass the swim test.

If you want to do all your training at once, ask the shop to make a package for you, I'm sure they'll be happy to. It's not like there is a mask clearing certification that you have to earn before you move on to your mask removal certification. The division between classes mostly makes sense. I guess you could argue that NAUI does it correctly by requirending rescue skills in every class, but the training progression with NAUI is still OW, AOW, Rescue, AI, DM, Instructor (with Master Diver thrown in there for those that don't want to go pro).

 

[boulderjohn]

Option 2 is a zero to hero course. I'm not sure anyone that is not a zero to hero diver will support this training progression.

Actually...

I used to work in a shop with a Course Director who had previously worked in one of the biggest dive shops in Florida (no longer in operation). He had the same attitude opposing such programs. Then he had an applicant from one show up, and for reasons I don't recall, he decided to give him a try anyway. He said the guy was really good, one of the best new instructors he had ever seen. Apparently there is a benefit to doing most of your dives in a concentrated period while being constantly critiqued by a veteran instructor trainer.