Blackwood
Contributor
That's not the scenario Trace suggested. His is an "oh **** we both screwed the pooch" situation.
"What if ..?"
- Thread starter Trace Malinowski
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That's not the scenario Trace suggested. His is an "oh **** we both screwed the pooch" situation.
Mark Michaud SELAUSAR
Contributor
Trace, this is a great topic. In the "real" cave and wreck" realm this is probably not an issue as gas management is second nature and part ot the plan. Though it is possible that one diver may have a gas loss, there should be adequate gas for the second based on gas management.
In the real world, too many divers go where they shouldn't, even if the overhead is just depth. What I mean here is too deep with too little gas (single 80) and then they run short or out of gas. If two are there and diving the same way there is a good possiblity of two victims or a double fatality.
Recreational diving training should change their minimum requirements to teach true gas management to everyone, especially new divers. That is the big issue that gets divers hurt and killed every year, especially rig diving spear fishers. Being at 100 feet and seeing you have 800 psi is unacceptable. New divers need to be taught to monitor, and manage, their gas. Knowing that if that same diver makes a safe ascent to 20 feet and then stops, the diver will probably have 700 psi. The diver can make a really long stop instead of bolting to the surface with the same 700 psi due to panic.
To answer your question, I am going home alive. If the person I am diving with were to completely run out of gas and if somehow I also had a short supply (ain't gonna happen based on the way I dive, short of entrapment) I would have to leave after trying everything I can to rescue my buddy. I would have to live with that decision, but I would learn to live with it. In reality this is a dangerous sport and divers need to understand that it can be fatal or life changing if they are not properly prepared.
In the real world, too many divers go where they shouldn't, even if the overhead is just depth. What I mean here is too deep with too little gas (single 80) and then they run short or out of gas. If two are there and diving the same way there is a good possiblity of two victims or a double fatality.
Recreational diving training should change their minimum requirements to teach true gas management to everyone, especially new divers. That is the big issue that gets divers hurt and killed every year, especially rig diving spear fishers. Being at 100 feet and seeing you have 800 psi is unacceptable. New divers need to be taught to monitor, and manage, their gas. Knowing that if that same diver makes a safe ascent to 20 feet and then stops, the diver will probably have 700 psi. The diver can make a really long stop instead of bolting to the surface with the same 700 psi due to panic.
To answer your question, I am going home alive. If the person I am diving with were to completely run out of gas and if somehow I also had a short supply (ain't gonna happen based on the way I dive, short of entrapment) I would have to leave after trying everything I can to rescue my buddy. I would have to live with that decision, but I would learn to live with it. In reality this is a dangerous sport and divers need to understand that it can be fatal or life changing if they are not properly prepared.
My canned response is: I would hand my reserve (i.e. pony or larger slung cylinder) to the guy and I would head for the light in the safest and fastest manner that I could.
Now if you want to throw conditions on the situation like "your pony/reserve is the gas remaining for both divers" than it becomes an emergency ascent utilizing the remaining gas for both of us. Even if it becomes a controlled emergency swimming ascent without a breathable gas supply, being bent can be cured, breathing water or trying to live on carbon dioxide can not.
I am also with Walter on the "if he didn't plan and follow the plan, shame on him" and as TSandM brout up "if he disregarded the let's teminate the daive, than he is on his own".
By The Way: I had an instructor/Dive Safety Officer give me the "yea, so?" response the one time I was in an Out Of Air situation at around 130 fsw. I had a pony and I did my own self-rescue up to the hang bottle at 20 fsw. So the save your own a** response does happen.
Peter Guy:
Perhaps you don't. On the other hand, that doesn't mean others haven't been in situations where they've had to make a choice of leaving someone to die or facing what they believed was probable death. Those folks very likely have an excellent idea of what they would do. I would imagine more people on this board have faced those situations than you might guess.
OP
Thanks for the replies so far. The idea for this thread was sparked by a short anecdote by PfcAJ in the DIR forum, by the real world loss of two friends cave diving in which one had two opportunities to live, but gave his life for his friend, and by my very wise NACD cave instructor who taught me how to live through such a situation in my apprentice course.
I'll jump in later to explain the above accident and what I was taught.
I'll jump in later to explain the above accident and what I was taught.
LiteHedded
Contributor
I would add that my buddy would have one hell of a time leaving me behind with no gas.
I'd like to see him try!
I'd like to see him try!
LiteHedded:
Fighting will use up the gas faster, there won't be enough to get either of you out alive.
LiteHedded
Contributor
So rather than die and let your friend live, you'll kill your friend and die anyway. Excellent choice. Remind me not to be your buddy.
LiteHedded
Contributor
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