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oldtimerbob

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I visit here to learn from mistakes and read the valuable failure analysis of accidents and I am flooded with page after page of condolenses to families and have a hard time getting anything out the threads because of the searching and searching through the pity threads. What happened to the rules of the threads here? I quote from the "sticky":

(4) No "condolences to the family" here

It is important for us as a community to assess and discuss diving accidents and incidents as a means of preventing them. However, once emotions are involved intelligent discussion becomes next to impossible. If the moderators feel that the discussion is getting out of hand in any thread they may close or remove the thread, with or without notice.

next to impossible? Yup v :shakehead:

Not trying to be unfeeling but....look at the thread titles and tell me if the "rules" are enforced so we may get down to the business of saving lives!
 
It seems we have had a number of family or friends show up in threads lately. Most of us know the TOS, but you know when someone shows up and say that was my daughter, well it is a little harder to just stick to tearing apart the dive. I think many feel that we can pick up the matter in another thread.

It is frustrating to want to talk about an incident and have the discussion shut down. I can tell you my Dad was a fool for not having a colonoscopy (sp?) done and now he is dead. It will be 8 years next week since we lost him, but you know in the days after he died it would have been a little hard for me to hear. So I think it is out of some sense of respect.

People often confuse Scuba Board with the internet. And Scuba Board is not the internet. It is a community. Sure we are all very different and live all over the place. DORKS, DIR, MOF, NMOF but at the end of the day we are a community. Even those I have had very strong arguments with would help me in time of need.

A few weeks ago, I started a thread. I participated in the morning, but my day was very busy and it was late in the evening until I could get back to it. I am not sure what went on during the day, but someone had my back, and more importantly the back of this community that I love so dearly. Posts that were out of line were removed and this discussion continued.

Sometimes we just need to let a thread go and revive the discussion elsewhere. I work in a business where most of the people I work with are less fortunate than I am. About two weeks ago a former employee was found dead downtown behind a building. A couple of months ago another employee’s father became like a piece of cheese on and shedder when his bike got hung under and 18 wheeler. In all of those cases and too many more to name, I have very definite thoughts about what went wrong. But when I talk to their families I show respect. I would like to warn others or keep myself from such a fate, but there is a time and place to do that. If the family or close friends come into our community or cyber home, it just isn’t the time and place.

I have said more than one time that I think I owe my life to this community and the lessons learned by reading the accident threads. There was a dive I feel very strongly that I would not have pulled out of had I not read these threads on this very board. I remember thinking, I am doing all the wrong things and making the same mistakes that so and so did and I must stop right now. But with that being said, and I still have SO SO SO MUCH to learn, I still need to be respectful of those who join our community. My right/need to learn does not outweigh my need to be a good community member.

Perhaps we can provide some comfort or some understanding to those people. Perhaps not. In the thread I mentioned in the previous paragraph a family member did in fact show up. I remember him well, a very rational reasoned young man. He was really having a hard time understanding what went wrong and what mistake his family member might have made. Sometimes it is just too much for others to hear and if it is we can find another thread to talk about it.

If there is a thread that is shut down due to the condolences, I can extract many of the details and take the what ifs over into the basic scuba forum and others will follow me or you to such a thread. It would be nice if we could keep everything in a neat package, but since we have people with real feelings that loved the real people that we are talking about, the rules are not always set in stone. Perhaps things in the Scuba Board community tend to be set in neoprene---flexible, will protect and keep you warm, not always pretty and sometimes smells, but as a community, it is something we cannot afford to live without and more importantly would we want to even try to live without such a mindset???
 
I agree with you Bob. The problem is that you can moderate the thread and post a reminder of the rules of the formum and one or two posts later someone will just drop in and say "condolences to family and freinds." That is exceptionally annoying as it gives the impression that they did not actually care enough to read the thread, but instead just hit reply and posted a disingenuous condolences message. Gotta wonder what message that really sends to family and freinds.

Only slightly less problematic are people who drop in, post a minor comment or two regarding accidents in general who then depart with a "condolences to family and freinds" statement.

As mod I can delete the posts, but too much of that and you start looking like a heel.

I also agree that an issue is often family members dropping in here and that often occurs because a member mentions the thread to them when in fact they could and should be referred to the "passings" forum if condolences are what is sought.

If members really want to clean the forum up then it needs to be a group effort with group enforcement of the rules.

And I agree without some clean up, the forum is largely useless as you end up wading through "condolences" messages.
 
I personally have never been a fan of "condolences to the family" posts.

First of all, it is rare that anyone who posts here actually personally knows the family of the victim. If they do, then you would hope that they've contacted the family directly, not just done some post in a forum like this. Go sit with them, answer their questions, take them a meal, be there for them. Don't just post "condolences to the family" and think it really eases their pain or confusion.

Secondly, if you didn't know the family, what's the point of the post? Most family members of victims DON'T read this forum. And if you didn't know the victim, and you don't know the family, "condolences to the family" seems to be more about making the poster feel better or useful than that the family might actually get some comfort out of a post from a total stranger.

What families hunger for in the aftermath of accidents, especially ones that involve fatalities, are answers. Many times these are people who don't dive, who don't understand what could have gone wrong, who don't want to accept that maybe their loved one did something that caused their own demise, and the just want to understand. Sometimes we can give them an explanation. Sometimes all we have is speculation. Sometimes the best we can give them is "We don't know."

But any of that is more menaingful than "condolences to the family." If you really want to do something for the family, do something real. Posting here with "condolences" isn't it.

My vote would be to immediately delete any post that's strictly "condolences" and to at least delete the "condolences" line from a post that has some meat to it and ends with that.

Done with my rant . . .
 
I agree totally with you both. And admit guilt. When I’ve taken the time to respond directly to a family member (as I did recently) there was internal debate happening with the insertion of a condolence. As my intent in posting was to encourage the family to remain participating and provide any details available, I felt on emotionally risky ground and couldn’t see not saying anything as other than being a cad.
I still felt bad by it, they aggravate me.

I do disagree that it is unlikely a family or persons familiar will show up here, I sure see it.
And yes those purely emotional offerings belong elsewhere.
 
Yes have to agree all of the above....unfortunately a number of threads quickly move away from the main points of discussing what has happened.. Condolences actually mean more when spoke that just a simple card in the mail which effectively all that is happening with these threads. It is hard and it may seem cruel but in reality it is better reminiscing a person life face to face than in word form
 
UnderSeaBumbleBee:
It seems we have had a number of family or friends show up in threads lately. Most of us know the TOS, but you know when someone shows up and say that was my daughter, well it is a little harder to just stick to tearing apart the dive.

If you aren't comfortable posting in the thread following TOS, don't post in it at all. There's an entire forum for those posts, we need to keep them there.

UnderSeaBumbleBee:
People often confuse Scuba Board with the internet. And Scuba Board is not the internet.

It's part of the internet. This is no longer a small town and can no longer have a small town atmosphere. It was a wonderful place when we had less than 500 members, but you don't remember those days, you weren't a member then. Now, with over 100,000 members, it's huge and we can't be quite as flexible as we once were.

UnderSeaBumbleBee:
Sometimes we just need to let a thread go and revive the discussion elsewhere.

If the discussion has run its course, I agree, but when it hasn't the "I'm sorry" posts need to be moved out of this forum and the discussion continued here where it belongs.

UnderSeaBumbleBee:
when I talk to their families I show respect. I would like to warn others or keep myself from such a fate, but there is a time and place to do that. If the family or close friends come into our community or cyber home, it just isn’t the time and place.

I agree, show respect. Respect doesn't include sticking our heads in the sand. We should politely and respectfully direct them to the Passings forum.

UnderSeaBumbleBee:
My right/need to learn does not outweigh my need to be a good community member.

If one life is saved, it's worth an ocassional case of disillusionment that someone's loved one wasn't perfect. None of us are perfect, that includes folks who've died diving.

DA Aquamaster:
If members really want to clean the forum up then it needs to be a group effort with group enforcement of the rules.

I'll start helping. I'll politely inform folks to post in the passings forum and click on the report post button.
 
My condolences to the family of this thread. What a waste.

I've never sent condolences, I mostly read here, but, I see no problem if someone wants to send condolences. If that makes them feel better, so be it. I just skim past the condolences. Should there be a penalty box for anyone deviating from ANY OP's direct subject matter? How about two posters getting into a direct disagreement, starting a "cat fight" while we're trying to learn? Or the speculation crew, who sweep into accident discussions, with little, if any facts, trying to show their vastly superior skills of deductive reasoning? Should all these posts be deleted? There wouldn't be much left to read. Not to mention the need for massive quantities of MODs. If this truely is a community, have a little tolerance for your neighbor.
 
I think if you are going to take off my off color comments about chlorine in the diver gene pool, Lobsters 7 Divers 0 and such then condolences also have no place on this thread. We as humans tend to make mistakes. If they are so dire that you cannot learn from your own, than lets hope other will, and this is the place for that.
 
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