What Can The Industry Do To Help Independent Instructors?

[Neilwood]

So I have been following this thread since it first posted.

"What can the dive industry do to help independent instructors?"

After nearly 60 some posts it appears to me the "dive industry" really does not have much to offer. Independent instructors should focus on business best practices and apply them to their circumstances. Development of relationships for an independent instructor is paramount for their survival. That is relations with LDSs, charter boat operations, students, other instructors, etc. Regardless of the business, the tools of the trade, or methods of delivery successful business are based upon relationships.

I think that is true of most industries from this one to construction etc.

Business always comes down to relationships - both with customers and suppliers (or in this instance trainees and LDS). Build a good relationship with a shop and it can work well for both shop and instructor (they might put students your way and you might put prospective buyers their way). Both profit from it (as do the students because they might get better deals out of that good relationship). Same goes for boats, other instructors etc. Treat every customer/ supplier as if they truly matter and as if they were your only one and you wont go far wrong.

Take the other parties for granted or abuse them and you are heading down a slippery slope.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

It's not about you, it's about what you posted. Just because I disagree with you and your tactics does not reflect how I feel about you. The continued animosity you display is a large part of this "topic". It's both ways and it's toxic.

No hard feelings Pete. Since you mentioned that you find me cheap and repulsive I will share a story with you. In fact I will share two of them. Keep in mind that I am not a dive professional. I have never been an instructor, assistant instructor or divemaster etc. So far, I am purely the customer in the industry. I am that guy that the LDS, dive boat, instructor, DM and all professionals in every capacity depend on for their bread and butter. Yet I am expected to sugarcoat my objections here so that the industry professional can read this and sleep well at night. Al right!!! That is how we shall proceed. I am telling you the following two stories in the most sugarcoated way I can.

When HOG regulators initially came out, there was a lot of praise about them on scubaboard by satisfied customers. People were giving amazing reviews and that made me decide that I need to buy a HOG regulator. I called my LDS and asked if they sell HOGs and they lied to me over the phone and said "Yes we do." I drove a good thirty miles to pick up a HOG reg and when I went into the store, they said they will order it for me as they do not have one in stock. The salesperson who was also one of the main instructors in the shop said to me that while he can order me a HOG reg, I need to know that HOG is not a real company and they will be going out of business very soon. I asked him why is that and he went on to explain to me that guys in HOG have basically purchased knock-off unbranded regulators which they are selling at a reduced rate. Once they run out of their batch there will not be a second batch. This is why all the HOG users are also buying service parts because there will not be any after sale service as the make-shift company will not exist.

Now, who do I believe? Do I believe scubaboard or do I believe the brick and mortar shop that some people are trying to defend here? I chose to believe the brick and mortar shop over everyone on scubaboard and thus I was sold an Apeks for more than twice the price that a HOG regulator would have costed me. I was told that there will be ease of service and I can bring it in every year and they will build it up for me parts free. When the service period came, the LDS had filed for bankruptcy and did not exist anymore. HOG was still around and doing great business but that LDS was shutting down. There was no AquaLung dealership closeby and I was stuck with a more expensive reg that was actually harder to get serviced. The shop instructor who sold me the Apeks regulator has since become an independent instructor and is now teaching from home. The last time I saw him at the quarry, guess which regulator he himself is now diving with? HOG! So here I am with my Apeks while the man who sold me that is now diving with HOG. I am happy with my Apeks but it costed me more than twice and there was no ease of service I can tell you that.

Another area which is extremely open to exploitation is the Divemaster scam. My drysuit instructor started out as a shop instructor and then broke away from the shop. She is a free-lance instructor now. When she decided to go pro and went to do her Divemaster certification at the LDS, she asked the LDS owner what exactly is in this for me? I will be making a pretty heavy financial investment so what will I get back in return after I become a DM? He told her that DMs do not get paid but she will be getting tips and leading trips on behalf of the LDS. Firstly it is a contradiction when you tell someone that they are going for a "professional certification" after which there will be no compensation but this is the diving industry and the consensus is that rules that apply outside do not apply in here. During that conversation the LDS owner showed her all the exotic trips that were posted on the wall of the LDS written on the chalk board with dates and rates. He said, "We need DMs to lead that Palau trip and that Bonaire trip. If you were a DM with us we will pay for your ticket and your hotel and let you lead a group. You will get tips after the trip is over and it would depend on how well you perform." She thought that a free trip to Palau even in professional capacity sounds like fun. She signed up for the DM course and paid a few grand. Soon she was filling tanks, loading them on to trucks, washing rental inventory and doing a whole lot of things as part of her DM internship except leading trips. In Florida, DMs get tips becauce they work in boats but in the land-locked, inland areas there are no boat charters so there is nothing to tip the DM about. In Florida DMs get their free dives in blue waters but in the inland areas, they get their "free dive" in a rock quarry with zero vis. All the "free perks" that sound so much fun in Florida are not a lot of fun in inland quarry where no one is tipping you. What about that fully paid free Palau trip that DMs lead? She was told that since you will be guiding a tour group, we ask that for the first time you must travel at your own expense just so that you understand how that place works. Then you will be our tour guide for that destination since you have already gone there on your own once. The LDS owner said "Find a destination where you would like to go again and again because we may have two or three of such free trips a year for you!" Sounds like fun right? She selected one such bucket list destination (I honestly do not recall which) and signed up with the same shop since they were going there. Since she was a shop employee they gave her a tiny discount on the trip. Even though she had paid pretty much full price for the trip, she was not really a customer when she landed there. She was an employee. Once they were at the destination, she was waiting at the airport helping other customers who were arriving in different flights then lugging their gear and driving them to the hotel then coming back for another batch. This was her "paid vacation." Once this was over she was now fully qualified to lead any future trips to that particular destination. The shop decided that for the next few years they will choose different destination and whenever in their lifetime that particular destination was chosen for the next trip then she will get to go for free.

Basically, LDS sold one person DM training, made them work for free in various capacities then also sold them an expensive trip, then made them work on that trip as a tour guide for free as well. Since this whole DM thing was progressing to be more and more one-sided in favor of the shop, this woman decided she will break away and become a freelance instructor. When she left, she took some shop clientele with her and for that crime LDS does not fill tanks for her or her students.

I fully understand that all shops may not function this way. I have seen some LDS's that are better run than the others. It may also be possible that a work for free agreement may sometimes benefit the parties involved. Yet the pace at which "industry" creates instructors and DMs, then chews them up and spits them out shows that most of the time one side is not happy with whatever the agreement they had. Guess which side is that?

There are two ways you can look at what I am saying here. You can look at the above and say that I am writing all this in animosity and I am drawing attention to myself in the most cheap and repulsive manner. You can also look at the above and say that this guy has no investments in either the LDS or the freelance instructor or the internet retailer etc. He is the guy who is going to get off the internet and spend his money based on his own perception of reality no matter how narrow or limited or incorrect it will be.

Which of the two perceptions you will embrace is something I will leave entirely up to you.

 

[The Chairman]

Since you mentioned that you find me cheap and repulsive

Why twist what I say? What's the end game in that? I find your debate tactics to be cheap and repulsive and now I'm finding this attempt to misrepresent me a bit infantile. I[m not commenting on you personally, but on your words.

Now, who do I believe?

Caveat emptor. I wish I could say that I have never been burned like that, but that's a part of living. We have a problem in this industry where people believe that if they don't teach, sell or dive something, then it must be junk. I've heard it from both Apex and Hog fans alike. When they hear something negative about a competing product they embellish and amplify it to make it sound worse. When a business has to resort to such lies to sell their product, they often go out of business. Which apparently they did.

There are two ways you can look at what I am saying here.

There are at least three... You seem to be more frustrated than angry. That doesn't mean you have go all shock on us to make your point. It makes you more like 'them' and they're the problem. Back off on the intensity a bit. We're all friends here. No need to treat us like we're enemies.

 

[stuartv]

Well Capt Sinbad here goes;
I Charge $6650 for DM training. Of that my cost on materials is $165 for a DM crew pack. The certifying in instructor gets $300. How you figure my cost on pool, park admissions, fills, boat trips and personal time is up to you. Burt it comes out of about $200. If you were working for me you would make $85 per boat trip you worked and $67.50 per DSD you taught (50/50 split) and a minimum of $11-$16 per hour if you were stuck working inside the shop. My shop employees make more money the more they can do. For example its and extra $1 per hour if they can VIP tanks, Instructors make more than DMs, boat Capt Licenses is also a pay bump..

Is that bolded part correct or a typo? Almost $7,000 for DM training?

And the costs that come out of that are (165+300+200=) $665? So, the shop is profiting $6,000 from one DM cert? That must be a typo or I'm missing something, right?

And the parts about what a DM gets paid only apply after the person has completed their DM training? They don't get paid for doing any of that stuff when they are doing it as part of their DM class?

 

[stuartv]

What I often wonder about is why there aren't more scuba clubs here, like there are in the UK.

I haven't been there and seen it in action in person, but my understanding is that there are a lot of scuba clubs in the UK and people can join those and get training and fills via club resources. No?

Regardless, I used to live in Tallahassee (Florida). My cousin was part of the Florida State University scuba club. IIRC, you could get scuba certified through the club and also get fills through the club. All for a lot less money than going through a local shop.

Why don't we have local clubs all over the place here in the U.S. where there are instructors that are club members who provide instruction for club members (and get paid for it)? And the club owns a compressor that people could use for fills? Maybe the club would even own tanks that club members could "borrow"? Obviously, the club would have to be incorporated as a non-profit and have insurance. But, what stops that?

I have actually thought quite a few times about starting my own non-profit to operate locally as a scuba club, just like I'm talking about. Instead of buying a compressor, look for a local shop to partner with for fills. As several in this thread have already observed, it would be a you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours situation. In practice, I could see the "club" becoming a de facto local dive shop. But, a non-profit company that is member-owned and operated. And it seems like "the industry" would support that well enough by virtue of the agencies that allow independent instructors. If the industry also allowed the club to purchase gear at dealer cost, which became club property, for use by club members, even better.

 

[BoltSnap]

What I often wonder about is why there aren't more scuba clubs here, like there are in the UK.

I haven't been there and seen it in action in person, but my understanding is that there are a lot of scuba clubs in the UK and people can join those and get training and fills via club resources. No?

Regardless, I used to live in Tallahassee (Florida). My cousin was part of the Florida State University scuba club. IIRC, you could get scuba certified through the club and also get fills through the club. All for a lot less money than going through a local shop.

Why don't we have local clubs all over the place here in the U.S. where there are instructors that are club members who provide instruction for club members (and get paid for it)? And the club owns a compressor that people could use for fills? Maybe the club would even own tanks that club members could "borrow"? Obviously, the club would have to be incorporated as a non-profit and have insurance. But, what stops that?

I have actually thought quite a few times about starting my own non-profit to operate locally as a scuba club, just like I'm talking about. Instead of buying a compressor, look for a local shop to partner with for fills. As several in this thread have already observed, it would be a you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours situation. In practice, I could see the "club" becoming a de facto local dive shop. But, a non-profit company that is member-owned and operated. And it seems like "the industry" would support that well enough by virtue of the agencies that allow independent instructors. If the industry also allowed the club to purchase gear at dealer cost, which became club property, for use by club members, even better.

Well, if this were a healthy and viable business model, BSAC would be growing and dominating the world diving scene but it isn't at all. In fact, it is dying.

 

[Neilwood]

What I often wonder about is why there aren't more scuba clubs here, like there are in the UK.

I haven't been there and seen it in action in person, but my understanding is that there are a lot of scuba clubs in the UK and people can join those and get training and fills via club resources. No?

Regardless, I used to live in Tallahassee (Florida). My cousin was part of the Florida State University scuba club. IIRC, you could get scuba certified through the club and also get fills through the club. All for a lot less money than going through a local shop.

Why don't we have local clubs all over the place here in the U.S. where there are instructors that are club members who provide instruction for club members (and get paid for it)? And the club owns a compressor that people could use for fills? Maybe the club would even own tanks that club members could "borrow"? Obviously, the club would have to be incorporated as a non-profit and have insurance. But, what stops that?

I have actually thought quite a few times about starting my own non-profit to operate locally as a scuba club, just like I'm talking about. Instead of buying a compressor, look for a local shop to partner with for fills. As several in this thread have already observed, it would be a you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours situation. In practice, I could see the "club" becoming a de facto local dive shop. But, a non-profit company that is member-owned and operated. And it seems like "the industry" would support that well enough by virtue of the agencies that allow independent instructors. If the industry also allowed the club to purchase gear at dealer cost, which became club property, for use by club members, even better.

Found the thread that dealt with it (linky) and I think the basic answer to why weren't there more dive clubs in the US is the fear of litigation should anything go wrong

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

There are plenty of dive clubs in my area. Some are associated with dive shops, others are completely independent of any dive business. I sit on the board of one of the latter. And there are legitimate concerns about litigation risk. That shouldn't inhibit the formation of a club ... but the board has to implement procedures to minimize the risk of litigation, such as how they advertise their activities, who's allowed to participate, and require every member and guest sign liability waivers for participation in club events. PITA, to be sure ... but that's the society we live in.

Our club schedules more than 200 different diving events each year ... our members are active divers. We offer rebates on classes that directly pertain to diving safety (rescue, CPR, AED, O2). Our members get discounts on air fills and equipment purchases at some of our local dive shops. We do community cleanup work, and maintenance work at some local dive sites, and participate in public awareness programs and charity events.

I think the reason why there aren't more dive clubs in the US is because it takes real effort to manage a successful dive club ... and in most clubs of any sort, there's only a handful of people who are willing to put in the work ... most members just want to pay their dues and take advantage of the benefits. That model isn't real sustainable.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[runsongas]

What I often wonder about is why there aren't more scuba clubs here, like there are in the UK.

I haven't been there and seen it in action in person, but my understanding is that there are a lot of scuba clubs in the UK and people can join those and get training and fills via club resources. No?

Regardless, I used to live in Tallahassee (Florida). My cousin was part of the Florida State University scuba club. IIRC, you could get scuba certified through the club and also get fills through the club. All for a lot less money than going through a local shop.

Why don't we have local clubs all over the place here in the U.S. where there are instructors that are club members who provide instruction for club members (and get paid for it)? And the club owns a compressor that people could use for fills? Maybe the club would even own tanks that club members could "borrow"? Obviously, the club would have to be incorporated as a non-profit and have insurance. But, what stops that?

I have actually thought quite a few times about starting my own non-profit to operate locally as a scuba club, just like I'm talking about. Instead of buying a compressor, look for a local shop to partner with for fills. As several in this thread have already observed, it would be a you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours situation. In practice, I could see the "club" becoming a de facto local dive shop. But, a non-profit company that is member-owned and operated. And it seems like "the industry" would support that well enough by virtue of the agencies that allow independent instructors. If the industry also allowed the club to purchase gear at dealer cost, which became club property, for use by club members, even better.

liability and tragedy of the commons issues. it takes time, money, and effort to get a bsac type setup running where the club can provide equipment and fills. originally came about due to a lack dive shops in the UK i've been told. much harder to get people to support a club doing all that when dive shops are doing fills for just a few dollars and renting gear for less than 20 dollars a day. also, if people are really spread out for the club, you could lose any savings driving further to a club fill station versus a dive shop near your house or the dive site.

not sure your idea would work as the club would have to become a de facto dealer in order to get dealer pricing. creates problems because you would have to continue buying gear from the OEM every year and you might be in an established dealers territory already. you don't want to lose your access to parts the 2nd year because you can't sell a certain amount of brand x's gear.

 

[PatMyGreen]

Is that bolded part correct or a typo? Almost $7,000 for DM training?

And the costs that come out of that are (165+300+200=) $665? So, the shop is profiting $6,000 from one DM cert? That must be a typo or I'm missing something, right?

And the parts about what a DM gets paid only apply after the person has completed their DM training? They don't get paid for doing any of that stuff when they are doing it as part of their DM class?

That was a typo. $650.