Were you taught this math in your entry level CCR class?

Were you taught this math in your entry level CCR class?

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 61.0%
  • No

    Votes: 15 36.6%
  • I don’t know

    Votes: 1 2.4%
  • Yes but I did not understand it

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    41

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

You're going to have to cite some examples of deaths caused by linear drift because I'm calling BS on this. We're not talking about current limiting here, you're saying linear drift and either we are talking about 2 different things or you have a whole different data source than I do because I have never heard of a CCR fatality attributable to linear cell drift.
Whether the display swings between 1.0 - .021 or 47mv and 10 mv what's the difference? There is no linear drift. If it goes from .21 in air to 1.0 in oxygen how is it not linear.

When I am teaching CCR my students ask how often do I calibrate. I use this analogy. I pick up my Gibson Les Paul and strum a chord. If it sounds right I play a few licks, if not I tune it.
If I turn on my rebreather and my cells show 0.21 and when I flush with O2 it shows 1.0 what more do I need to do? How is this process not safe. Please explain.

Nice graph, have you ever seen it happen in real life? A cell showing this mode of failure might get you bent, not toxed

Dave,
You may call ******** on whatever you would like. I have friends that have taken your same attitude and have paid with their lives. I would guess that you either don't notice it because you don't do the math or haven't been diving CCR long enough to have the experience or both. Yes cells can have linear drift and in many ways. They can be just about spot on up to 1.0 then go far out without being completely limited, most of the time linear drift is a fairly constant curve however not always. Limiting and Linear Drift are mechanically the same failures just in a bit of a different way.

I've used cells with more than 10% linear drift, that drift was maintained and stable up to and just past 1.6. When diving remotely with limited supplies sometimes that is the choice that I have made however I've kept my PO2's down even with deeper deco until I reached 20'/6m where I know my PO2 is limited. Not to side track the discussion however that is also a reason that I do deco gas switching, on a CCR, when doing dives that require deeper decompression stops. I setup my decompression gases in order to have a 1.6 set point with the gas switch then do a solid flush to see what I can actually get from the cells.

There is also humidity limiting. Do long enough dives and cells will become saturated with water causing them to read considerably lower or even be limited. Bump your set point up too high with this condition and tox is a likely result.

Maybe you will have more faith in Wikipedia. If your CCR cells show 0.21 in air and 1.0 in O2 then you need to go down to 20'/6m and check the output with O2, otherwise you are still flying blind unless you are diving a 0.7 set point. You can also check the mv in air and mv in O2, do a little math and know that the cells are linear to 1.0. Do just a bit more math, go down to 20'/6m and check mv again with O2 and know for sure that your calibration and cells are good. It is simple division and multiplication.

Your Gibson guitar won't result in your death if you play it out of tune or incorrectly. There is a better safer way to handle O2 cells on CCR's, that is simply do the math and know the health of your cells. No doubt or assumption, simply knowing that when your start the dive that your cells are in good health. I also check my cells at 20'/6m at the end of every dive. It gives me an idea of where they are with humidity and time on them. Different dive times will show different humidity limiting and by doing this I build a knowledge of how my cells are affected over varying dive time.
 
Dave,
You may call ******** on whatever you would like. I have friends that have taken your same attitude and have paid with their lives. .
I am sorry you have lost friends. As a CCR instructor for the last 10 years I have tried to keep current on CCR fatalities. If you are not comfortable posting the info here can you please PM me with details of these fatalities you speak of.
 
I have not seen a cell drift off 10%, but my sample size is a lot smaller than some other members. I'm just trying to clarify the linearity questions here and find a graph often cuts through a lot of confusion.
what you are describing is a current limited cell, not a deviation. A deviation is still a straight line just with an offset to the expected value. Think two straight lines that only intersect at one end, not a curve.
 
Added a current limited cell for comparison. Limited means it’s dying, nonlinear means it’s response doesn’t match a straight line, not that it’s limited. I check on descent that I can hit north of 1.5 and greater than 1.6 on the way up. Once it’s calibrated the PPO2 reading isn’t going to “drift” but it may not be accurate in the case of nonlinearity.

cell_response.png
 
Your Gibson guitar won't result in your death if you play it out of tune or incorrectly. There is a better safer way to handle O2 cells on CCR's, that is simply do the math and know the health of your cells. No doubt or assumption, simply knowing that when your start the dive that your cells are in good health. I also check my cells at 20'/6m at the end of every dive. It gives me an idea of where they are with humidity and time on them. Different dive times will show different humidity limiting and by doing this I build a knowledge of how my cells are affected over varying dive time.

Ok let me try another analogy to see if I can get through. As I explained above the mv of a cell is linked to the PO2 value it displays by performing a calibration. Whether the units are atm or mv the relationship is fixed when the calibration in performed. They are just 2 units expressing the same thing. Just like Fahrenheit and Celsius both express temperature neither is wrong in expressing temperature and the relationship between the two does not change throughout the scale.. Same with PO2 and mv. Assuming a good calibration, one in which the diver has performed the math to ensure that the cells were adequately flushed with O2 the PO2 is a very reliable way to determine cell linearity as the multiplier used throughout the scale is fixed therefore an accurate representation of mv just in different units.
 
Ok let me try another analogy to see if I can get through. As I explained above the mv of a cell is linked to the PO2 value it displays by performing a calibration. Whether the units are atm or mv the relationship is fixed when the calibration in performed. They are just 2 units expressing the same thing. Just like Fahrenheit and Celsius both express temperature neither is wrong in expressing temperature and the relationship between the two does not change throughout the scale.. Same with PO2 and mv. Assuming a good calibration, one in which the diver has performed the math to ensure that the cells were adequately flushed with O2 the PO2 is a very reliable way to determine cell linearity as the multiplier used throughout the scale is fixed therefore an accurate representation of mv just in different units.

I think I'm tracking with your explanation. Talking MV or calibrated PPO2 readings with a known gas it tells the same story. Would this be right?

The old analog secondaries demonstrate this well (mk15, bmr500, electrolung, prism topaz and others). Physically adjust a potentiometer, watch the MV meter needle move as you calibrate to a known gas/pressure. It just has a PPO2 written on the voltmeter display face. Perhaps some mistrust of computers has us miss this when calibrating digitally?

Regards,
Cameron
 
I think I'm tracking with your explanation. Talking MV or calibrated PPO2 readings with a known gas it tells the same story. Would this be right?

The old analog secondaries demonstrate this well (mk15, bmr500, electrolung, prism topaz and others). Physically adjust a potentiometer, watch the MV meter needle move as you calibrate to a known gas/pressure. It just has a PPO2 written on the voltmeter display face. Perhaps some mistrust of computers has us miss this when calibrating digitally?

Regards,
Cameron
Yes thanks for that description.
 
Added a current limited cell for comparison. Limited means it’s dying, nonlinear means it’s response doesn’t match a straight line, not that it’s limited. I check on descent that I can hit north of 1.5 and greater than 1.6 on the way up. Once it’s calibrated the PPO2 reading isn’t going to “drift” but it may not be accurate in the case of nonlinearity.

View attachment 429947
I suggest showing the graph all the way to zero.
 
I suggest showing the graph all the way to zero.

Why? It will shrink the differences between the three cell responses I'm illustrating. The 0.21 is there just to show 0.21 to 1.0 response.
 
Back
Top Bottom