well this bites...

[captain]

I will put in very simple terms (as a non-expert)

Dive shop has the air
You want the air
It is up to YOU to comply with what the shop will/will not fill, or convince them that the tank is safe

So, prove that the tank is safe

That should be easy enough to understand

A unique idea. How about the shop prove that it is not safe

 

[TheRedHead]

It's a waste of time to argue with a dive shop. I can't get mine to do a nitrox top off on a tank which contains helium, never mind PP O2.

 

[SeanQ]

Good post Roak, except...

And in the tank filler’s case, you’d get more bang for your buck through properly training tank inspectors than blaming 6351 for the problems we’re seeing.

I think bangs from a pressure vessel is what we want to avoid.

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

A unique idea. How about the shop prove that it is not safe

They have what you want.... not the other way around

 

[roakey]

I will put in very simple terms (as a non-expert)

Dive shop has the air
You want the air
It is up to YOU to comply with what the shop will/will not fill, or convince them that the tank is safe

Make no mistake about it, I feel that it's entirely within their rights to refuse to fill any cylinder. What interests me is "Based on what?" You keep asking to have it proved to you that the cylinders are safe. The DOT has visited this question, revisited this question and revisited this question yet again at last count. The truth just doesn't change. 6351 is a safe cylinder when properly inspected. The key here is "properly inspected". I don't think all shops properly inspect cylinders. So instead of this "self regulating" industry "self regulating" and getting their act together and training their staff properly, they shift the blame somewhere else, and make the customer pay for their ineptitude.

I don't blame Stephen for getting nervous. There are some real tank monkeys out there. Take for instance the guy that pointed out my cylinder had to be O2 clean before he filled it -- with Argon! And I'm supposed to somehow prove to a moron like that that my cylinder is "safe"?

Ignorance and greed are the only two things that are driving this 6351 debacle. The dive shops won't shell out to send their tank monkeys to a PSI class, they do bad inspections and when tanks go "boom" they blame the alloy, not the owner of the LDS that told the 16 year old untrained kid to inspect the cylinder.

I will put in very simple terms (as a non-expert)

…

So, prove that the tank is safe

That should be easy enough to understand

Is there some reason that the LDS should not trust the DOT since they have, and can supply all the information required to prove that the tank is safe? Since the LDS feels that the cylinders are unsafe, and the experts, the DOT, says that they are, perhaps you could shed some light on what information the LDS has that the DOT is missing?

Otherwise, the LDS isn’t an expert (thanks for pointing out that you’re not one too) and this is just sensationalized reporting of a few (but tragic, make no mistake about that) accidents averaging about 0.5 deaths/injuries a year. If the shop was REALLY interested in saving lives, they’d get out of the dive business completely, which is responsible for 200 TIMES that rate in deaths per year.

Refusing the fill the cylinders is pure and unadulterated greed. The LDS’ won’t fork out to properly train their employees, they point to their own failures (improperly inspected 6351 cylinders going boom) and blame the alloy, rather than the real problem (their self regulating industry is failing to self regulate) and then have the audacity to really stick it to their customers by selling them another cylinder (which is 10 years who knows – they might come up with another fear, rather than logic based reason to stop filling).

It’s pretty downright disgusting when you look at what’s really happening.

Roak

 

[roakey]

It's a waste of time to argue with a dive shop.

I agree. For the most part they are woefully ignorant, and only take positions (right or wrong) that increase their bottom line.

Roak

 

[captain]

This tread is a perfect example why I have owned a compressor for the last 35+ years. I don't need the LDS for anything.

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

Make no mistake about it, I feel that it's entirely within their rights to refuse to fill any cylinder. What interests me is "Based on what?" You keep asking to have it proved to you that the cylinders are safe.

I'm not asking you to prove it to me. I don't fill tanks and I don't have any old tanks. I could care less if the tanks are good or not good.

The person who started this thread and continues to ask the board for proof because HIS LDS won't touch HIS tanks needs to convince HIS LDS that the tanks are safe.

Do not be mistaken that I am asking for proof. I don't care.

The DOT has visited this question, revisited this question and revisited this question yet again at last count. The truth just doesn't change. 6351 is a safe cylinder when properly inspected. The key here is "properly inspected". I don't think all shops properly inspect cylinders. So instead of this "self regulating" industry "self regulating" and getting their act together and training their staff properly, they shift the blame somewhere else, and make the customer pay for their ineptitude.

Completely moot when the LDS will not touch the tank out of fear. Do you fill these tanks? If so, the poster should go to your shop.

I don't blame Stephen for getting nervous. There are some real tank monkeys out there. Take for instance the guy that pointed out my cylinder had to be O2 clean before he filled it -- with Argon! And I'm supposed to somehow prove to a moron like that that my cylinder is "safe"?

Off topic

Ignorance and greed are the only two things that are driving this 6351 debacle. The dive shops won't shell out to send their tank monkeys to a PSI class, they do bad inspections and when tanks go "boom" they blame the alloy, not the owner of the LDS that told the 16 year old untrained kid to inspect the cylinder.

& fear for safety. 4 Shops in my immediate area have the information posted and will not touch these tanks. Does it bother me... not in the least. I don't have or use them. Do I care? Again, no.

Is there some reason that the LDS should not trust the DOT since they have, and can supply all the information required to prove that the tank is safe? Since the LDS feels that the cylinders are unsafe, and the experts, the DOT, says that they are, perhaps you could shed some light on what information the LDS has that the DOT is missing?

Not for me to shed light. See your LDS and hash it with them.

Refusing the fill the cylinders is pure and unadulterated greed.

From your point of view

The LDS’ won’t fork out to properly train their employees, they point to their own failures (improperly inspected 6351 cylinders going boom) and blame the alloy, rather than the real problem (their self regulating industry is failing to self regulate) and then have the audacity to really stick it to their customers by selling them another cylinder (which is 10 years who knows – they might come up with another fear, rather than logic based reason to stop filling).

Take it up with your LDS

It’s pretty downright disgusting when you look at what’s really happening.

Your opinion.

 

[roakey]

Ah, the old argue and then say you don't care gambit. Another one to add to the ignore list.

I on the other hand DO care. I do care if the self regulating SCUBA industry shoots themselves in the foot with this one. I don't want to pay $10, $20, $30, whatever per fill if government regulation gets involved.

So, if you don't care, you're part of the problem. Educate those four LDS'. Their fear is misplaced, misdirected and inappropriate.

Roak

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

Ah, the old argue and then say you don't care gambit. Another one to add to the ignore list.

I on the other hand DO care. I do care if the self regulating SCUBA industry shoots themselves in the foot with this one. I don't want to pay $10, $20, $30, whatever per fill if government regulation gets involved.

So, if you don't care, you're part of the problem. Educate those four LDS'. Their fear is misplaced, misdirected and inappropriate.

Roak

Add this guy to the "walks into the middle of the thread, and takes information out of context, but jumps in anyway" category. This is the one you should have ignored from the start, because you knew he didn't have context.

Do I care if the LDS chooses what they want to do with their business. NO. Why? Because there are more LDS's down the street.

Part of the problem, no.... get some context to what was being said and what was being answered. If you think you did have context, go back and read it again. If you still think you have context... try reading it again.

As I stated earlier, this has reduced itself to "TROLL" status as a thread. I should have gotten out of it when I stated I was getting out of it. NOW, I will get out of it. Nothing is being served here.

I would be happy and invite you to add my user name to your ignore list. It would save me time when you jump in the middle again.