Weighting,Stupid Question !!!!

[gr8white]

Come on people! Flaming? No...this is a true honest discussion. There is no name calling here. Just an effort of many people to understand each other. It actually has engaged DIR and non-Dir divers seeking to understand DIR concepts. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, it's been posted and duely noted that understanding DIR cannot be found on the internet. Gee, then what is the purpose of the GUE and 5th Dim website? To be an information site for DIR divers? NO.....to encourage others to embrace the DIR philosophy and cause the system to grow. This board should be the same. Seems to me, it has gained the attention of few who have shown an interest.

I believe I read that two different people in this forum mentioned that this was more interesting than other forums they see. I also think I recall two or more people mentioning there is something here to learn. Does this belong in this forum? I suppose that is up to the moderators. But if I was a moderator watching a discussion that other members found interesting and informative, I think I would encourage it. Beats a string of "LOL", I',m with you dude" and other responses of banal diatribes.

As far as me....I responded to the comment that "there is no reason to ever ditch a weight." I simply responded back essentially saying , never say never and be prepared for the worst. I got arguments back stating DIR precludes any situation that would require this. I often see DIR divers with little experience (I am NOT stating that is the case here, so relax) arguing with 20+ year diving veterans over theory and I would be hard pressed to say I would feel safer with them than the veterens. Getting DIR certified does not make you fail safe. Being a 20 year veteran diver does not make you fail safe. Be prepared.

I swore I was going to bow out of this thread...but like a thorn in my side...I can't let it go.

 

[Nomaster]

No. Buddy lines are NOT DIR. For the exact reason you mentioned-entanglement hazard.
edit: Not diving is always an option.

This is why I would like to find a neutral
location for discourse. Questions are life.
"Not diving is always an option"
such statements do not allow questions.
Here in your church, I will not question,
I want to talk to someone with their thinking
cap on in the coffee shop.
That you thought it out and discussed the
question before is no help to me, before I buy
the product, I want to test it, I will not "buy"
from a door to door proselyter who is not willing
to share her/his reasoning. When reasoned with,
I might come to agreement, but this forum
states, "thou shalt not."
Since I like questions, and I like thinking, I like
questioning thinking people. I decide whether
to agree after the act of discussion.
Where is the coffee shop?

Tom

 

[JustJoe]

but this forum
states, "thou shalt not."
Since I like questions, and I like thinking, I like
questioning thinking people. I decide whether
to agree after the act of discussion.
Where is the coffee shop?

Tom

LOL, I'm with you dude!

Seriously, I think Nomaster brings up a great point. Although this thread was a little skewed from the start, in the end the answers did come out. But it took a long time of bantering back and forth to get a reasoned response that "I" could understand.

Joe

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

This is why I would like to find a neutral
location for discourse. Questions are life.
" Not diving is always an option"
such statements do not allow questions.
Here in your church, I will not question,
I want to talk to someone with their thinking
cap on in the coffee shop.
That you thought it out and discussed the
question before is no help to me, before I buy
the product, I want to test it, I will not "buy"
from a door to door proselyter who is not willing
to share her/his reasoning. When reasoned with,
I might come to agreement, but this forum
states, "thou shalt not."
Since I like questions, and I like thinking, I like
questioning thinking people. I decide whether
to agree after the act of discussion.
Where is the coffee shop?

Tom

Tom, you got the DIR answer to your question ... use of buddy lines does not fit in with the team diving concept that DIR espouses. What I presume you are looking for are answers to the questions "why" and "what's the alternative". Although there are others here with far more DIR experience, I'll attempt to respond to those.

First, "why" ... it's mainly because, as was stated, they can represent an entanglement hazard. Now, while a properly-used buddy line can be quickly and easily released if it should get entangled, doing so presents the DIR diver with another situation that is anathema to the team diving concept ... buddy separation. You can well imagine that the need for a buddy line is in literally zero-vis conditions ... so releasing the line means that you will not be able to see your buddy, and that implies that the potential for not locating each other is high. One core value of DIR is "team diving", which means you must be able to see and communicate with your buddy at all times. In the case of a buddy line, even if you are both attached to it, you will most likely be violating that principle. Therefore, it's not something DIR wants you to do.

Which brings up the next question ... what's the alternative? DIR divers are taught how to dive in such a way as to keep constant track of their buddy ... in low-vis conditions that usually means keeping, literally, within elbow-touching distance of each other. If conditions get worse than that ... such as a silt-out condition where vis literally drops to zero, buddies will maintain physical contact. This usually means that one buddy assumes "leader" position (which is typically the case anyway), and guides, while the other buddy places his left hand on the right forearm of the lead buddy. Touch signals, such as squeezing the forearm or pulling in a particular direction, are used for communication. Admittedly, my knowledge of DIR doesn't extend to the point where I have learned many of these signals yet ... mostly one squeeze to stop, two squeezes to continue, and tugging in the direction you need to go. If the diver holding onto the forearm needs to use his left arm (for example, to vent), he'll squeeze to stop, do what he needs to do, reach out and grab the forearm again, and squeeze to continue.

The salient point being that, in the DIR regimen, contact with your buddy is maintained. A buddy rope leaves open too much possibility that this will not happen, even if an entanglement hazard isn't highly probable (such as in very low vis, OW conditions).

To respond to your other point ... if you wish to hear non-DIR alternatives to the question, please post it in the Basic Discussions forum. I'll be happy to give you some pointers on the use of buddy lines that I learned back in the days when I used them. We needed to put the rules we did in place here because prior to that, these discussions were so filled with non-DIR solutions to problems that it became difficult to discern what was DIR and what wasn't ... and we (the SB Staff) felt that DIR was such a different approach that having a place dedicated describing DIR solutions was a desireable thing to do (we still think so).

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Soggy]

This is why I would like to find a neutral location for discourse. Questions are life. " Not diving is always an option" such statements do not allow questions. Here in your church, I will not question, I want to talk to someone with their thinking cap on in the coffee shop. That you thought it out and discussed the question before is no help to me, before I buy the product, I want to test it, I will not "buy" from a door to door proselyter who is not willing to share her/his reasoning. When reasoned with, I might come to agreement, but this forum
states, "thou shalt not." Since I like questions, and I like thinking, I like questioning thinking people. I decide whether
to agree after the act of discussion. Where is the coffee shop?

Tom

(extraneous line breaks removed)

We shared our reasoning quite clearly, I think...

 

[detroit diver]

Nomaster,

One more thing. Your reference to DIR as being a "church" is not appreciated. We are not a religion. Those references, along with the "kool-aid" comments are not relevant, or funny coming from someone who has little no knowledge of what we stand for.

 

[Nomaster]

Tom, you got the DIR answer to your question ... What I presume you are looking for are answers to the questions "why" and "what's the alternative". Although there are others here with far more DIR experience, I'll attempt to respond to those.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

Thanks and great answers to some of the questions I'm sure would have come up "over coffee" and some that might not have.
The most recent request for the smell of fresh coffee, though, was imbedded in the statement, "Not diving is always an option".
I didn't and don't like words like "always"; without thorough discussion anyway.
In the above discussion, I do consider that "not diving" was certainly an option, because it was purely recreational diving.
My request for coffee is because I agree that this forum should be accepted for what it is, so another sandbox or coffee shop was my answer.
You gave a choice, and therefore an answer to the question, "where is the coffee shop?"
Thank you for that too.
I joined ScubaBoard right at the end of a misunderstanding, that after some debate seemed well resolved, so I understand the heated feelings that you're trying to avoid, plus the non-DIR answers within the DIR forum. Again, so I had no problem with understanding the reasons for the need to keep the DIR forum pure.
Now I know, because of what you said, the general diving forum is frequented by folks from DIR whom I can trust... and if I don't I'll PM you, UP, or another for the straight skinny!
THANKS!,

Tom

 

[Nomaster]

Nomaster,

One more thing. Your reference to DIR as being a "church" is not appreciated. We are not a religion. Those references, along with the "kool-aid" comments are not relevant, or funny coming from someone who has little no knowledge of what we stand for.

I'm sorry, my intention was not as general as the statement was... it was directed at those who seemed to avoid discussion, I am clear that there are those who reason and Bob (Grateful Diver) has given me a place to find those who can and will do more than repeat scripture.
You must understand that I believe that your forum should remain pure, but I was looking for a location where those who will discuss and reason from their own experiences, like Bob and many others of you, yet is safe from being misunderstood by those of us who are not initiated.
And when I used terms like church, scripture, and others, I was attempting to illustrate what it sounds like to those of us in the darkness of our lack of enlightenment - I am seeking the light, but not the light of an incendiary.
I anticipate that you will think I could have used a gentler approach; would that I could, but I have been reading these circuitous arguments for a couple of months now and often haven't seen a dull glow, much less real light when frustrated questioners couldn't get their needs met. Each time, the accusation has been "You just don't like the DIR answer!" In, probably, most cases this was true, but I did not see individual cases being treated individually...often enough for my comfort. It appeared that both sides were frustrated with the responses they were getting and responding in an ever more frustrated manner.
After all that, I think I am satisfied to lurk here and post questions elsewhere, but be ready for me to ask, "Why?"
MAN, It is WAY past my bedtime!
Thanks for you perseverance.
Hasta,

Tom

PS I have never used the "Kool Aide" comment!!!
and if I ever should seem to stoop so low, I request you PM me and bring my attention to anything you understand to be so insipid.
I have no problem sounding stupid I don't need to sound that way intentionally.

 

[Nomaster]

(extraneous line breaks removed)

We shared our reasoning quite clearly, I think...

The "extraneous" line breaks are to parse thoughts,
to avoid runonhodgepodge.

Tom

 

[dbulmer]

NovizWhix,
If you're still reading ..
I'm a novice and Soggy (among others) did a marvellous job of explaining exactly how DIR divers operate in the water but let me just comment on one thing that I think Mer commented on. One thing that DIR guys don't get praised for is the mentoring they perform for novices (non-DIR) like me. When Soggy et al talk about the unified team approach it is a real description of how they dive.

Let me give you an example.
Earlier this year I had my 3rd UK seadive. Just before an ascent I found that my wing inflator had come loose. I signalled I was having a problem and my buddy was at my side very quickly (vis was 3 metres or so - DIR divers always stick to their buddies particularly when it's me coz well I'm dangerous. My buddy couldn't re-connect the inflator hose - we both had cold hands! I was thinking, ah well, I'll need to manually inflate. As I was thinking of this he'd already inflated my drysuit and we started our ascent. Essentially he'd rescued me. When we spoke later he said he could see I was ok but said that you always prevent a minor problem from becoming a bigger one and that it was easier him sorting me out rather than risk me mucking up the manual inflate. Now it had not occurred to me to use my suit as a buoyancy backup. The point is he was there, he anticipated my actions before I did, and didn't wait for me to sink before acting. I was overweighted but the problem was solved in the water and I learned some very valuable lessons.

My experience of DIR divers is that team awareness, constant skill practice, fitness and a willingness to learn are essential. You cannot get this off an internet forum it comes from in-water time.
That said, I do sometimes wish that DIR divers on this forum would not go quoting TOS - there are some people who do go out to bait you but not everyone is like that. What can sometimes appear a troll is often a genuine post from a position of not knowing (ignorance) or not having had in water experience from you guys.