Foxfish
Contributor
I wish I could find the place where I read that McFadeyn was going to appear as an expert witness... maybe my memory is playing tricks on me
Here?'Honeymoon killer' may be innocent, says dive expert
Watson Murder Case - Discussion
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Here?'Honeymoon killer' may be innocent, says dive expert
Foxfish
Contributor
There is an interesting thread here about over breathing your regulator with some personal accounts of where it has happened. Over Breathing a Reg.. By way of explanation, over breathing is trying to suck more air from your regulator than the regulator can supply. Normally it is not a problem. It can happen if a regulator is not working properly. The deeper you go the greater the volume of air you suck through a regulator so it tends to happen on deeper dives where people become puffed through high exertion such as fighting current. It is made worse through panic and anxiety. The more anxious you get the more air you demand. The more air you demand the more you notice the lack of air flow to you regulator which heightens anxiety. I'd imagine the worse thing that could happen is that you would black out. In that case you'd relax and providing your regulator was in your mouth then you'd come around. Still wouldn't explain how Tina died.
Ayisha
Contributor
No, Gabe initially said that he was not aware of any other divers being around. After he was asked about other divers, he asked if there were any and said that he felt that he was being watched and wondered what people would think of his actions.
The divers of the Jazz II, including Dr Stutz, were just beginning to descend from their boat. Dr Stutz alerted Wade Singleton, and the rest is history.
Remember that the police theory from the beginning was that the battery ploy was to give Gabe and Tina privacy on their dive since everyone from their boat was back on board and Gabe and Tina had the wreck to themselves. The divers from the Jazz II started descending during the last stage of Tina's life, when the police allege that Tina's air was turned back on after she was incapacitated. No one has claimed to see more than the last "10-30" seconds before Tina started freefalling to the ocean floor.
A 4 minute, 40 second ascent from Gabe's max depth of 45'?
And a safety stop for a 7 minute dive to a max depth of 45'?
"he felt he was being watched and wondered what people would think of his actions."
IMO this is one of the keys to understanding this guy. His self esteem or ego couldn't take the hit of others knowing he was incapable/incompetent. Most people would be wallowing in grief, he was still self consumed. Teenagers are embarrassed of being seen publicly with their parents because they can't get past wondering what others think of them(the teenager.)
I think that similarly, Gabe was vacillating between grief and wanting to appear manly, and was trying to uphold his self image of big strong rescue diver man. Maybe he was afraid of people knowing how bad he sucked?
Ayisha, do you feel that his slow ascent rate means he is guilty of murder?
When under duress and stress, people have no concept of time. How long does it take for your life to flash before your eyes when you think you are on the precipice? Have you ever had dreams where the boogie man is after you and you feel like you are running through mud? People react to stress differently.
Some are decisive and responsive while others are paralyzed with doubt and indecision.
Again, the point is that all of the weird circumstances are explainable and circumstantial. That is why I say that I think he is not guilty. Innocent? That is a different question.
IMO this is one of the keys to understanding this guy. His self esteem or ego couldn't take the hit of others knowing he was incapable/incompetent. Most people would be wallowing in grief, he was still self consumed. Teenagers are embarrassed of being seen publicly with their parents because they can't get past wondering what others think of them(the teenager.)
I think that similarly, Gabe was vacillating between grief and wanting to appear manly, and was trying to uphold his self image of big strong rescue diver man. Maybe he was afraid of people knowing how bad he sucked?
Ayisha, do you feel that his slow ascent rate means he is guilty of murder?
When under duress and stress, people have no concept of time. How long does it take for your life to flash before your eyes when you think you are on the precipice? Have you ever had dreams where the boogie man is after you and you feel like you are running through mud? People react to stress differently.
Some are decisive and responsive while others are paralyzed with doubt and indecision.
Again, the point is that all of the weird circumstances are explainable and circumstantial. That is why I say that I think he is not guilty. Innocent? That is a different question.
Ayisha
Contributor
I believe he stated something to the effect that he wondered if anyone watching might think he was hurting her. His full statement in that regard is in a couple of places within this thread.
No.
Ayisha
Contributor
Many of us have that gut feeling as well, Bruce. We also don't know if there is enough admissable evidence to convict Watson beyond a reasonable doubt.
What I'm finding in this thread, however, is that people are twisting facts to support Watson's defence rather than supplying a theory based on facts. Some of these theories propogated by posters have not even been publicly used by Watson - yet. Many of these lay "defence" theories contradict the facts.
I am also hearing from a couple of posters that the reason they are so concerned about the outcome of this case is that they are concerned about a precedent being set and being held liable/convicted due to any future actions/inactions on their part in a SCUBA accident. The case should be tried and/or discussed on it's own merits, not how it could affect you in the future.
Not you, Bruce, but those that have posted those concerns.Foxfish
Contributor
Ayisha, I stand corrected. "I was thinking those people could see us or at least think something odd was going on," he said. But earlier Detective Senior Constable Gehringer had asked him if there were any other divers nearby. "I don't think there was anybody'" Watson said. Gabe Watson 'hung out and asked for hugs' on other dive boat as others tried to save Tina's life | The Courier-Mail. Thanks.
Gabe and Tina were on board the Spoilsport. Mc Fadyen notes there were a number of groups of divers taken by tender from Spoilsport to the DAP starting from about 9.30 am. He believes Gabe and Tina were on a tender that went out a bit after 10.00 am. They aborted the first dive and went back to the Spoilsport where Gabe fixed his computer. I understand the divers from these first groups that went out were in the water by the time Gabe and Tina got back to the DAP in the tender and started their second dive. At this stage another boat, the Adrenalin had moored nearby with other divers who were there to work on mooring lines. Gabe and Tina entered the water a second time just before Wade, the person who raised Tina. Another group with two divers from the Spoilsport and two groups of divers from Jazz II entered the water some time after the start of this second dive. McFadyen believes that Gabe saw Karin and Robert Lador back at the DAP, the two divers from the latest tender from the Spoilsport.
McFadyen notes the following regarding Gabe and Tina's second dive: "They returned to the DAP and Gabe and Tina descended first. It would appear that based on the printouts from Wade's computer and other evidence that Gabe and Tina entered the water about 30 seconds before Wade. Working back from when Wade surfaced we know that Gabe and Tina entered the water at 10:30:30 am and Wade, Gary and Dawn started their dive at 10:31:00 am."
He notes the following regarding the entry times of the divers from Jazz II.
"The Jazz II entry times were recorded as 10:35 am and 10:36 am in the vessel's diver log record and can be expected to be an accurate recording of the time the divers entered the water (not descended). Alana McMahon, Second Mate and a Dive Instructor, recorded the times from her watch. However, in her statement to Police later that night she said it was 10:30 am [the diver log record is likely to be more accurate as it was filled out as they entered the water whereas the statement was completed from memory]. It took the divers probably one to two minutes to swim across to the DAP (divers, including Stutz, confirm this), so they probably started descending at 10:37 am. In any case, the people remaining on Jazz II all stated that Gabe surfaced less than a minute after their divers descended."
It is on this basis that McFadyen believes that it would not have been possible for Stutz to have seen the incident that occurred prior to Gabe leaving Tina. He offers the explanation that Stutz was looking at other divers. I'd suggest that it could also have been made up or his mistaken observations embellished from what he'd heard from others about Gabes story. Stutz claims to have seen Wade zoom down from the surface and rescue Tina. McFadyen records the following testimony from Stutz on the topic.
“I saw another diver come dive in the water and go basically straight down to get her” and “I saw another diver come in from above, and make a beeline straight to the bottom” and “I was impressed by how fast he went down, honestly” and “I was stunned actually” and “He did after that period of time [enter the water – that is he was not in the water till this time]”
The profile from Wade's dive computer shows that he was in the water 5 1/2 minutes before he descended from 15 metres to raise Tina. This included a minute and a half swimming horizontally at 15 m prior to the descent. Wade's computer profile is the most objective and accurate record we have of when he was in the water and when he surfaced with Tina. It can be used to cross check the time Gabe entered using the computer dive log records from both Gabe and Tina's computers. Wade's dive profile directly contradicts the claims made by Stutz about the way he saw Wade descend.
Gabe and Tina were on board the Spoilsport. Mc Fadyen notes there were a number of groups of divers taken by tender from Spoilsport to the DAP starting from about 9.30 am. He believes Gabe and Tina were on a tender that went out a bit after 10.00 am. They aborted the first dive and went back to the Spoilsport where Gabe fixed his computer. I understand the divers from these first groups that went out were in the water by the time Gabe and Tina got back to the DAP in the tender and started their second dive. At this stage another boat, the Adrenalin had moored nearby with other divers who were there to work on mooring lines. Gabe and Tina entered the water a second time just before Wade, the person who raised Tina. Another group with two divers from the Spoilsport and two groups of divers from Jazz II entered the water some time after the start of this second dive. McFadyen believes that Gabe saw Karin and Robert Lador back at the DAP, the two divers from the latest tender from the Spoilsport.
McFadyen notes the following regarding Gabe and Tina's second dive: "They returned to the DAP and Gabe and Tina descended first. It would appear that based on the printouts from Wade's computer and other evidence that Gabe and Tina entered the water about 30 seconds before Wade. Working back from when Wade surfaced we know that Gabe and Tina entered the water at 10:30:30 am and Wade, Gary and Dawn started their dive at 10:31:00 am."
He notes the following regarding the entry times of the divers from Jazz II.
"The Jazz II entry times were recorded as 10:35 am and 10:36 am in the vessel's diver log record and can be expected to be an accurate recording of the time the divers entered the water (not descended). Alana McMahon, Second Mate and a Dive Instructor, recorded the times from her watch. However, in her statement to Police later that night she said it was 10:30 am [the diver log record is likely to be more accurate as it was filled out as they entered the water whereas the statement was completed from memory]. It took the divers probably one to two minutes to swim across to the DAP (divers, including Stutz, confirm this), so they probably started descending at 10:37 am. In any case, the people remaining on Jazz II all stated that Gabe surfaced less than a minute after their divers descended."
It is on this basis that McFadyen believes that it would not have been possible for Stutz to have seen the incident that occurred prior to Gabe leaving Tina. He offers the explanation that Stutz was looking at other divers. I'd suggest that it could also have been made up or his mistaken observations embellished from what he'd heard from others about Gabes story. Stutz claims to have seen Wade zoom down from the surface and rescue Tina. McFadyen records the following testimony from Stutz on the topic.
“I saw another diver come dive in the water and go basically straight down to get her” and “I saw another diver come in from above, and make a beeline straight to the bottom” and “I was impressed by how fast he went down, honestly” and “I was stunned actually” and “He did after that period of time [enter the water – that is he was not in the water till this time]”
The profile from Wade's dive computer shows that he was in the water 5 1/2 minutes before he descended from 15 metres to raise Tina. This included a minute and a half swimming horizontally at 15 m prior to the descent. Wade's computer profile is the most objective and accurate record we have of when he was in the water and when he surfaced with Tina. It can be used to cross check the time Gabe entered using the computer dive log records from both Gabe and Tina's computers. Wade's dive profile directly contradicts the claims made by Stutz about the way he saw Wade descend.
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Foxfish
Contributor
Many of us have that gut feeling as well, Bruce. We also don't know if there is enough admissable evidence to convict Watson beyond a reasonable doubt.
What I'm finding in this thread, however, is that people are twisting facts to support Watson's defence rather than supplying a theory based on facts. Some of these theories propogated by posters have not even been publicly used by Watson - yet. Many of these lay "defence" theories contradict the facts.
I am also hearing from a couple of posters that the reason they are so concerned about the outcome of this case is that they are concerned about a precedent being set and being held liable/convicted due to any future actions/inactions on their part in a SCUBA accident. The case should be tried and/or discussed on it's own merits, not how it could affect you in the future.
If this refers to my posts please provide a factual basis for your criticism. I'd view one of the benefits of a forum such as this is the ability to raise new and different perspectives, ideas, opinions and theories and discuss them and disagree with them. Providing they are clearly indicated as such and have a factual basis I think it is appropriate.
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Foxfish
Contributor
Comments by McFadyen on the ascent of Gabe Watson:
"Originally I thought "What a brave man!!!!" Not only did he not chase his wife to the bottom, he would not even risk his life by ascending quickly to raise the alarm. On the face of it, according to his dive computer, he took up to three minutes to ascend from 15 metres. This is about half the normal safe ascent rate under US Navy Dive Tables and less than most computers built in alarm ascent rate! Note also that only about five or six minutes has passed from the time they descended till this point. However, Gabe's computer recorded a maximum ascent rate of 90 to 120 feet at some time (3-4 times recommended ascent rate) and when he passed the 19 foot mark he was ascending at 61-90 feet a minute (2-3 times the rate). If he did not leave the wreck till about the 5.75 minute mark and he did swim up to other divers at 5 metres and try to get their attention, it appears he did indeed ascend pretty quickly and all is somewhat explained."
"Originally I thought "What a brave man!!!!" Not only did he not chase his wife to the bottom, he would not even risk his life by ascending quickly to raise the alarm. On the face of it, according to his dive computer, he took up to three minutes to ascend from 15 metres. This is about half the normal safe ascent rate under US Navy Dive Tables and less than most computers built in alarm ascent rate! Note also that only about five or six minutes has passed from the time they descended till this point. However, Gabe's computer recorded a maximum ascent rate of 90 to 120 feet at some time (3-4 times recommended ascent rate) and when he passed the 19 foot mark he was ascending at 61-90 feet a minute (2-3 times the rate). If he did not leave the wreck till about the 5.75 minute mark and he did swim up to other divers at 5 metres and try to get their attention, it appears he did indeed ascend pretty quickly and all is somewhat explained."
This is not a court room. Everyone can have an opinion, but should try to keep things straight.
It seems that most of the evidence is shaky testimony based on foggy memories and opinion. The only facts are the in the computers and McFadyen pieces that information together pretty nicely to sketch us a picture.
Maybe someone can create a small outline which lists only the facts that we are allowed to discuss here. Be careful to leave any inconsistent or debatable statements off, including Gabe's.
Now what is left? Is there actually a case?
The posts in this thread by divers about divers, have been for the most part, very thoughtful and intuitive. Most posters have researched the statements made, the timeline, and have read ad nauseum.
Most of the opinions that I have read, from both sides of the argument, have merit.
Attorneys and those with legal experience have added their take as well.
Hypothesis about that which has not yet been brought up over the last 9 years is likely no less valid than the aromatic matter that has floated about for nearly a decade.
It is at the very least, very interesting. How will the court's conclusions compare to ours?
It seems that most of the evidence is shaky testimony based on foggy memories and opinion. The only facts are the in the computers and McFadyen pieces that information together pretty nicely to sketch us a picture.
Maybe someone can create a small outline which lists only the facts that we are allowed to discuss here. Be careful to leave any inconsistent or debatable statements off, including Gabe's.
Now what is left? Is there actually a case?
The posts in this thread by divers about divers, have been for the most part, very thoughtful and intuitive. Most posters have researched the statements made, the timeline, and have read ad nauseum.
Most of the opinions that I have read, from both sides of the argument, have merit.
Attorneys and those with legal experience have added their take as well.
Hypothesis about that which has not yet been brought up over the last 9 years is likely no less valid than the aromatic matter that has floated about for nearly a decade.
It is at the very least, very interesting. How will the court's conclusions compare to ours?
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