Watson Murder Case - Discussion

[Foxfish]

Now I am sorry but I have been pretty busy and while I have read the links I can't point to the specific one that stated the Tina there was no air in her BCD.

Assuming that is the case.. it supports this Scenario

she was overweighted
Gabe had her by the hand (or whatever) and was trying to get her back to the percieved "Safety" of the Mooring line.
Gabe while overweighted had put air in his BCD when he indicated to Tina to put air in her BCD
When his mask got knocked awry and flooded.. he let go
She started sinking
Without her drag and good bouyancy control he started ascending while correcting his problems
Gabe is stressed, task loaded.. decision making questionable...
Gabe too bouyant doesn't dump air to descend can't descend on quick effort
Tina too negative descending
Gabe elects to go for help abandoning the attempt (and Tina)

Bad decision.. we certainly know that in hindsight but evidence of criminal intent :?:

A summary of Mcfadyen's description is as follows:

- Tina signalled to Gabe to head back to the DAP (diver access point) at a depth of 15 m.

- Tina put out her hand and Gabe took it to assist her along.

- Gabe stated that Tina was dropping down and he let go of her to use his right hand to inflate his BCD.

- Tina appeared to also inflate her BCD. He says that Tina was still dropping and looked “scared” and he grabbed her BCD and pulled her towards the DAP.

- Tina hit him in the face, knocking his mask sideways so it filled with water.

- He again let go of her to fix his mask.

- After putting his mask back on and clearing it of water, he discovered his regulator was not in his mouth so he grabbed his octopus and used that.

- Once he took a breath, he looked around and saw Tina dropping away.

- Gabe upended himself and tried to reach down to her. After a very brief attempt to get to her Gabe decided that he was not going to go after her as she was sinking too quickly.

- Gabe then let Tina sink to the bottom and instead swam at an angle towards the DAP line.

Refer to 'Dive 2' here Michael McFadyen's Scuba Diving Web Site

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Thanks for the link pretty much what I described in the scenario above but I added a bit of information that reflects what I think may have contributed to the situation based on the info we have been given. I am multi tasking and didn't have the time to go track the link down. I am sure I read somewhere in the multitude of links that there was no air in Tina's BCD when she was found...

 

[Foxfish]

Thanks for the link pretty much what I described in the scenario above but I added a bit of information that reflects what I think may have contributed to the situation based on the info we have been given. I am multi tasking and didn't have the time to go track the link down. I am sure I read somewhere in the multitude of links that there was no air in Tina's BCD when she was found...

McFadyen records the following. Doesn't say that the BCD was empty, just that it needed air to raise Tina. If she was negatively buoyant at 15 m she would be much more at the bottom.

"Wade came to Tina's body and assessed that she was not breathing. He placed his right arm under her right arm and put his hand on her regulator, depressing the purge button and forcing air into her mouth. He used his left arm to cradle her head and hold her inflator, putting air into her BCD. Before this, he dropped his weight belt [he did this rather than drop Tina's as she was wearing integrated weights which are harder to remove - this was the "bear hug" that Dr Stutz would later describe about Diver 3 holding Diver 1 but would come to be used by the Police to describe how Diver 2 [Gabe] was holding Diver 1 [Tina]."

From here Michael McFadyen's Scuba Diving Web Site

 

[alohagal]

Not to rehash again...but what did most of you conclude on the amount of time Gabe took for his ascent?

 

[Divedoggie]

bop, new divers confuse the inflate/deflate buttons all of the time. Also the SPG and the LPI. Familiarization with gear in the classroom and repetition in the pool go a long way to prevent confusion, but..

When they finally get it figured out, they run out and buy new equipment for the upcoming dive vacation, and tada, they have an integrated octo, with a different button arrangement, attached to the new BCD which doesn't get used until the first dive of the trip...

The new wetsuit, new BC, first time in salt water, no idea how much lead they need... I wonder if Tina used the same equipment during her OW certification as she used on the fateful day?

It isn't only newbies. Cave divers will tell you that the worst offenders of cave etiquette are Open Water Instructors. I can't quote the exact statistics, but there are definitely a disproportionately large number of instructors who die in caves. Maybe one of the cave divers around here can link us to those stats.

It boils down to education, training, and experience, and being honest with ourselves about our abilities, limitations....and the limitations of our training.

I'm much more inclined now to thumb a dive, or call a dive before it ever begins, than I ever was. The more I know, the more I realize and admit that I don't know.

Speaking of not knowing, and sort of getting back on topic, I don't think anyone knows or will ever know what exactly happened to Tina. Unless Watson actually did murder her, in which case he knows exactly what happened. But knowing 1000s of new divers over the years leads me to more readily believe all of the theories thrown around SB, much more readily than the premeditated murder for no actual insurance money scenario.

 

[Divedoggie]

Not to rehash again...but what did most of you conclude on the amount of time Gabe took for his ascent?

If Gabe was indecisive, ("should I go up, should I go back?, am I supposed to do a safety stop?", etc.) then the amount of time it took him to surface is explainable. Add the other emotions in, as well. Scared, embarrassed, shocked, disbelief, inadequate, and more, and you have a very confused person heading toward the surface.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Originally Posted by Foxfish
Why is sinking to the bottom with plenty of air in your tank and the regulator stuck in your mouth a problem. I'd contend there was essentially no risk. It was Tina's response to the risk that was the problem.[/quote]
Absolutely agree with this statement. Stop. Think. Act is a pretty basic premise but hard to follow as a new diver in a bad situation. Tina was at a site with a known bottom depth within safe recreational limits. Had she been able to settle to the bottom, freeze and stay there with all the divers present there is every good chance that she would have been seen and approached by someone to check on her. The viz clearly would have allowed this. In decent viz a lone diver stationary gets attention from the dive leaders, dive professionals and curious divers who want to know if the diver has found something interesting. If nothing else this would have bought time for her to settle and think .. and possibly the help Gabe surfaced to elicit time to get to her. In the clear cool light of day.. breathing unlimited air sitting at our computers this is easy to talk about. I remember a time it took every bit of my will power to settle to the bottom and wait. Even after 630 or so bottom hours I remember the discipline it took to do that. I am not a person inclined to panic. I have worked in Emergency services, dealt with some pretty hairy situations but learning to dive meant I had to conquer one of my greatest fears! We don't know if it was panic.. passive or otherwise or some other factor... ie hyperventilation and passing out that was the last link is this disastrous chain of events.

Originally Posted by Foxfish
McFadyen records the following. Doesn't say that the BCD was empty, just that it needed air to raise Tina. If she was negatively buoyant at 15 m she would be much more at the bottom.

"Wade came to Tina's body and assessed that she was not breathing. He placed his right arm under her right arm and put his hand on her regulator, depressing the purge button and forcing air into her mouth. He used his left arm to cradle her head and hold her inflator, putting air into her BCD. Before this, he dropped his weight belt [he did this rather than drop Tina's as she was wearing integrated weights which are harder to remove - this was the "bear hug" that Dr Stutz would later describe about Diver 3 holding Diver 1 but would come to be used by the Police to describe how Diver 2 [Gabe] was holding Diver 1 [Tina]."

From here Michael McFadyen's Scuba Diving Web Site[/quote]



I believe I read that there was no air in her BCD on a link besides McFadyen's. I have a great deal of respect for the man, even more for Dr Carl Edmunds but not everyone here is of the same opinion so I am trying to rely on other sources besides MCFadyen. I think his Blog is very thorough, well thought out altho perhaps a bit verbos (Pot kettle black comes to mind

) I believe he indicated that he will be an Expert Witness for the Defense and I suspect that is why he seems to have had access to reports and information the rest of us have not. That access lends credibility to his information alto one would have to also consider bias.

I have said many times over the years in this thread that we need to consider the bias and agenda of all the participants in this case!

Originally Posted by alohagal
Not to rehash again...but what did most of you conclude on the amount of time Gabe took for his ascent?[/quote]



lol after what I just said about using McFadeyn's blog too much... I remember reading that he said Gabe's computer only logged depth changes when certain significant points were reached. If he went down or up without crossing one of those preset marker points it would not record a change in depth so it may be hard to say with absolute certainty when his ascent actually started!

I know I have been involved in a discussion elsewhere on this forum when I stated that many new divers don't really understand the concept of the safety stop and equate it with a deco stop. I certainly know from my own experience how it got drilled into my head to make this stop. I seem to be confessing to a few of my stuff ups on this thread. Example. My dive #114 I was doing a boat Dive with 5 others. My buddy, myself and another couple were diving as a larger group the other couple were paired off. We did the dive... near the end we rejoined the other couple who were starting to ascend and I lost contact with my larger group. I stayed with the other pair to do my safety stop.. worried about my buddy but figuring he was with the other couple so he would be ok. I was so locked into having to do the safety stop. My buddy surfaced.. "of course" being a much more experienced diver. The boat operator and my buddy knew were I was because of the three sets of bubbles. I got a well deserved dressing down about following lost buddy procedures! I thought I had done the right thing because we were ascending immediately after I lost my buddy. In my mind I thought that going to the surface safely meant I had to do that safety stop! I had done a 40 minute boat dive to 22M max... was not close to deco but I still thought I HAD to do that stop! Had I thought my buddy was really at risk.. I doubt I would have done the stop but would have been pretty cautious in my ascent!

Some of what McFadeyn states seems to indicate that Gabe's ascent was quicker than we were led to believe. I would be interested to know for sure how long it did take him. I certainly understand that as inexperienced as he was Gabe probably did think his ascent was quick.. and remember he claims to have headed to another diver to alert them so he would have been ascending at an angle which would have also taken longer.

Sorry I had composed this post and when I went to post it.. the site was down so when I did post it the quotes didn't work right so I have bolded the bits that are quotes I am responding to

 

[bowlofpetunias]

bop, new divers confuse the inflate/deflate buttons all of the time. Also the SPG and the LPI. Familiarization with gear in the classroom and repetition in the pool go a long way to prevent confusion, but..

When they finally get it figured out, they run out and buy new equipment for the upcoming dive vacation, and tada, they have an integrated octo, with a different button arrangement, attached to the new BCD which doesn't get used until the first dive of the trip...

The new wetsuit, new BC, first time in salt water, no idea how much lead they need... I wonder if Tina used the same equipment during her OW certification as she used on the fateful day?

It isn't only newbies. Cave divers will tell you that the worst offenders of cave etiquette are Open Water Instructors. I can't quote the exact statistics, but there are definitely a disproportionately large number of instructors who die in caves. Maybe one of the cave divers around here can link us to those stats.

It boils down to education, training, and experience, and being honest with ourselves about our abilities, limitations....and the limitations of our training.

I'm much more inclined now to thumb a dive, or call a dive before it ever begins, than I ever was. The more I know, the more I realize and admit that I don't know.

Speaking of not knowing, and sort of getting back on topic, I don't think anyone knows or will ever know what exactly happened to Tina. Unless Watson actually did murder her, in which case he knows exactly what happened. But knowing 1000s of new divers over the years leads me to more readily believe all of the theories thrown around SB, much more readily than the premeditated murder for no actual insurance money scenario.

It was stated somewhere that Tina bought her gear for her course putting more pressure on her to complete the course. Someone commented on that in l\the last page or so of posts. I found it interesting that McFadeyn points out that Tina would not have met the requirements in Australia to be issue her a C Card. Michael McFadyen's Scuba Diving Web Site

Another interesting thing to note that if this course was done in Australia, it would not have qualified her for a dive certificate as the Australian Standards (AS) at that time required a person to complete four open water dives which must be in an environment which is subject to wind, swell, currents or waves. In no way could the quarry be considered open water under the AS definition. In addition, the dives must be at least 20 minutes in duration (none reached that), all must be deeper than four metres (this was met), two must be to at least 10 to 18 metres (not met), at least one to 15 to 18 metres (not met), one must be a boat dive (not met) and at least 100 minutes in total (not met as she only did 60 minutes or 73 minutes if you include the three 7 feet dives).

If Gabe was indecisive, ("should I go up, should I go back?, am I supposed to do a safety stop?", etc.) then the amount of time it took him to surface is explainable. Add the other emotions in, as well. Scared, embarrassed, shocked, disbelief, inadequate, and more, and you have a very confused person heading toward the surface.

Interesting you mention the safety stop issue. I was typing my response about the Safety Stop issue while you were posting. When I went to post it was down for maintainence Yes I think there are a number of ways to explain the seemingly slow ascent. I wish I could find the place where I read that McFadeyn was going to appear as an expert witness... maybe my memory is playing tricks on me

 

[Foxfish]

Snyder’s knee jerk reactions sounds like the lynch mob you regularly see posting comments on crime news articles. Experience doesn't guarantee the ability to step outside your gut feeling and prejudices and weight up the facts objectively. Courts are there to ensure this happens. I’m surprised he was called up as an expert witness. Some people, including those on the jury, may like this kind of approach because it resonates with their own prejudices and saves a lot of hard thinking. As they say, for every complex problem there is a simple solution - which is invariably wrong.

Gabe testified there was a struggle where Tina knocked his mask flooding it with water and knocked the regulator out of his mouth. Stutz testified that ”Something happened…maybe she’d pulled her (sic) regulator out of his mouth, or kneed him in the groin” which seem to fit Gabe's comments. If Gabe rushed off to get help after this then I don't view his action to be unreasonable or necessarily negligent. It would be interesting to hear stories of divers that actually had a regulator knocked out of their mouth and how they responded? I’ve never had it happen but I can imagine it would rattle me if it came unexpectedly.
I don't know enough about the legalities to know whether you can be prosecuted for breaching your 'duty of care' as a dive buddy because you didn't do what you are supposed to do. It seems from Gabe's manslaughter conviction this is the case in Queensland, Australia at least. What I do know from my experience, and others here are saying the same thing, is that divers for a range of reasons simply do not do what they are supposed to do all the time, especially if they are in stressful situations.


The goal posts of the trial have shifted now. It was previously man slaughter. Now Gabe is on trial for murder. "Prosecutors say Watson is a cold-blooded killer and chronic liar who plays dumb to get sympathy." gabe watson murder trial - Google Search. Proving that Gabe acted negligently is no longer adequate. The prosecution now has to demonstrate that he acted maliciously and intended to kill Tina. That leaving Tina was not just Gabe failing to fulfill his role as a dive buddy but that he was responsible for her dying, that he left her in that state knowing that she had died and that he intentionally avoided getting help so that she could not be revived. As far as I’m aware, there is no evidence to support the idea that Gabe killed Tina and left her for dead. Had Gabe left Tina in a state of distress and swam around for some time before casually making his way to the surface and then failed to tell anyone about her predicament that would clearly suggest malicious intent but not necessarily that he murdered her. Staying near your buddy while they slowly died on the pretext that you tried to help them and couldn’t but you decided not to go and get help because ‘the first rule of diving is to stay with your buddy’ would also suggest malicious intent. (Cont)

 

[Foxfish]

One of the things not yet resolved is the role of other divers close to Gabe at the time of the incident. Gabe said he was aware of other divers nearby and words to the effect that he wondered if they would thing what he was doing was strange. Stutz claims that there were divers about three metres from Gabe and Tina at this time. In recent statements in the media he said that he could see about three dozen divers in the water. Judging by the photo, the visibility looked reasonable. Stutz himself claims to have been six metres away observing what was happening. Apparently no one went close to help or check out what was happening. When Gabe went to get help, he states he went back to the DAP line which from McFadyen’s account was about 10 to 15 m away. Gabe testified that he could see divers at the DAP. He claims to have tried to get other divers to help but was unable. He then ascended to the surface.


Apparently the police tried to investigate other divers nearby, largely through email, to verify claims Gabe had tried to alert them to what had happened. Not surprisingly the response was poor. If there were divers within a few metres it does raise serious questions. Who were these divers? How could they not have seen the incident and not see that something was wrong? Did they not see or choose not to get involved? If however the nearest diver was many metres from Gabe it puts a further question mark over the testimony of Stutz. If these most basic facts of the case cannot be resolved then in my mind it makes the whole thing seem farcical and the whole basis for finding Gabe guilty of murder tenuous.


It is my understanding that McFadyen’s graph of Gabe’s ascent was derived from his computer. It provides a record of Gabe’s depth as he ascended to the surface over time. McFadyen states that Gabes watch only recorded depths for his dive profile when the change in depth exceeded 10 ft so it is not possible to determine the path that Gabe took between the two recorded values. For example, he could have travelled in a straight line between the points or followed a step wise path. The overall impression is that once Gabe started to ascend, he went straight to the surface in two minutes. I did my OW through SSI who recommends an ascent rate of 9 m per minute with a three minute safety stop. Hence a normal ascent from that depth would have been around 15/9 + 3 = 4 minutes and 40 seconds. I’ve been taught that even in a lost buddy scenario you should still do a safety stop prior to ascending. Without the safety stop Gabe’s ascent should have taken 1 minute and 40 seconds. Gabe’s ascent rate was therefore slightly slower than the maximum advised but did not include the safety stop. It was suggested that Gabe’s ascent rate at the end was very high. This is not evident in the graph.