Water in regulator at depth causing panic

[L13]

Responding to L - I am measuring it from the exhale because that is what happened to me. I exhaled and my next breath was full of water and I couldn’t get new air into my lungs.

***This thread is not all about emergency ascents! Emergency ascent was only one of several solutions to the original problem***

Sorry, the immediate context of your comment was a discussion of about emergency ascents.

You are right that you have a a very limited time to make rational decisions. If you did decide to make an ascent, that would not be as limited.

 

[Salt]

I still have trouble understanding how this is difficult. Tongue up, purge, breathe, spit water out on exhale, repeat if necessary...

Indeed, it is a fairly simple process. I know how to do it

The real issue has to do with accurately diagnosing a problem and coming up with a solution in a high stress stress situation.

Like I said, I was swimmingly along at 60 feet and took in a mouthfull of water causing me to gag / seal off my airway. It caught me completely by surprise. My brain simply did not go to the purge valve as a solution.

I practice swapping regulators underwater all the time, so I know how to press the purge valve as part of that process. I’ll admit I was probably a little rusty on just pressing the valve alone to clear water with reg in mouth. But I still might not have made the connection.

————————————-

If I might make an analogy:

You can practice a specific martial arts technique in the safety of the dojo, but when someone throws a punch at you on the street, how will you react?

 

[Boarderguy]

You can practice a specific martial arts technique in the safety of the dojo, but when someone throws a punch at you on the street, how will you react?

Getting hit in the face gets me going. I generally don't let people get that close to me. When it happened recently (2 years ago) I rolled with it and then took the douchebag down and pressed his face into the concrete. I'm different though, I contemplate how I may react to different scenarios often and have ample training to deal with it. 13 yrs USMC and hand to hand combat instructor...

 

[lowwall]

If I might make an analogy:

You can practice a specific martial arts technique in the safety of the dojo, but when someone throws a punch at you on the street, how will you react?

If it's a real martial art, you will know because you've experienced it. If your "martial arts" practice doesn't include sparring with contact, it's an exercise class, not actual martial arts training. There are plenty of benefits to such classes, but you should never mistake it for self defense training.

Back to scuba. Unlike non-contact martial arts, we don't pantomime reg and mask skills*. I suggest you practice on every dive. Start with removing and replacing your reg after an inhale and when you are comfortable do it after an exhale. When you are comfortable with that, practice swapping with your octo. The other thing you should practice pretty much every dive is clearing your mask, with regular full removal and replace. I tend to do this just prior to the ascent or on the safety stop so I can give my nose a good blow.

Ideally, you'll be practicing air sharing as well, but you need a willing buddy.

* OTOH, we mostly do pantomime dropping weights and CESAs. This is questionable, but at least you can argue that a conscientious diver should never have to do either, while everyone will have to clear a reg or mask eventually.

 

[Celt]

The exhaust valve is usually the culprit with a wet reg. Very dirty water can be a problem or the valve can get a kink in the reg body. I'd put my thumb in the mouth piece and purge to clean the valve or reseat it.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

If it's a real martial art, you will know because you've experienced it. If your "martial arts" practice doesn't include sparring with contact, it's an exercise class, not actual martial arts training. There are plenty of benefits to such classes, but you should never mistake it for self defense training.

Back to scuba. Unlike non-contact martial arts, we don't pantomime reg and mask skills*. I suggest you practice on every dive. Start with removing and replacing your reg after an inhale and when you are comfortable do it after an exhale. When you are comfortable with that, practice swapping with your octo. The other thing you should practice pretty much every dive is clearing your mask, with regular full removal and replace. I tend to do this just prior to the ascent or on the safety stop so I can give my nose a good blow.

Ideally, you'll be practicing air sharing as well, but you need a willing buddy.

* OTOH, we mostly do pantomime dropping weights and CESAs. This is questionable, but at least you can argue that a conscientious diver should never have to do either, while everyone will have to clear a reg or mask eventually.

One of the advantages of being an older diver and diving for a while is that we used to carry a snorkel on our mask, and do a lot of surface snorkeling to the dive site from shore. When you do this, you naturally switch between the snorkel and the regulator. I’m still doing that, and on almost every dive I will switch out the demand stage (I sometimes use double hose regulators) for the snorkel, and back. The snorkel saves air when the diver is on the surface. So the switching comes very naturally.

This came in handy when I had a regulator malfunction which was very much like the OP. I started the dive on a Dacor Pacer Aero second stage, and upon my first inhalation got almost all water, not air. I did a quick change to my safe second, a Dacor Quattro second stage, and finished the dive with that regulator. When I look at the Aero second stage, the main diaphragm had a fold which left it open to the outside. With this regulator, that was a possibility when the cover and diaphragm are removed for cleaning, and screwed back together. So I learned the technique from the first page here to take a first inhalation off the regulator before turning on the air. There should be a vacuum, and if not, you have a major leak that can be determined before entering the water over your head in a heavy river current.

SeaRat

 

[Litefoot]

This has been an interesting thread. We seem to agree that the OP’s brief bottom time duration would probably have precluded DCS issues had he attempted a CESA. We also seem to agree that the desire to inhale during a CESA is affected both by CO2 levels and the physical sensation of expanding air leaving the lungs during exhale. Do the PADi/SSI published CESA ascent rates figure in both DCS mitigation AND sufficient air expansion in the lungs to keep the exhale going? Just wondering.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

This has been an interesting thread. We seem to agree that the OP’s brief bottom time duration would probably have precluded DCS issues had he attempted a CESA. We also seem to agree that the desire to inhale during a CESA is affected both by CO2 levels and the physical sensation of expanding air leaving the lungs during exhale. Do the PADi/SSI published CESA ascent rates figure in both DCS mitigation AND sufficient air expansion in the lungs to keep the exhale going? Just wondering.

I have done some CESAs (controlled emergency swimming ascents) from about 33 feet, and don't recall any sensation of wanting to inhale. Mostly, there is excess air and so there is a need to keep the airway open and mouth open so as to exhale that excess air during the CESA. I have not done that from deeper water, nor for an extended time period. But again, there was no sensation of needing to inhale.

Now, I'm pretty familiar with swimming and diving, even in my early days. I was on swim teams before diving while a young teen, and it was a water person. So someone who was not a water person may have different experiences.

SeaRat

 

[johndiver999]

This has been an interesting thread. We seem to agree that the OP’s brief bottom time duration would probably have precluded DCS issues had he attempted a CESA. We also seem to agree that the desire to inhale during a CESA is affected both by CO2 levels and the physical sensation of expanding air leaving the lungs during exhale. Do the PADi/SSI published CESA ascent rates figure in both DCS mitigation AND sufficient air expansion in the lungs to keep the exhale going? Just wondering.

The reality is that the trading agencies have deemed a true cesa too dangerous, primarily because of the danger of over expansion. You can swim or float up very fast if healthy and airway is open. In a real situation, the diver is going to be under a lot of stress and will probably be moving pretty fast- suggesting ascent rates has limited utility, but if you are doing one of these and you reach maybe 25 feet and feel fine, it would make sense to really slow the ascent.

 

[boulderjohn]

This has been an interesting thread. We seem to agree that the OP’s brief bottom time duration would probably have precluded DCS issues had he attempted a CESA. We also seem to agree that the desire to inhale during a CESA is affected both by CO2 levels and the physical sensation of expanding air leaving the lungs during exhale. Do the PADi/SSI published CESA ascent rates figure in both DCS mitigation AND sufficient air expansion in the lungs to keep the exhale going? Just wondering.

I'm not sure I understand the question, or at least its premise. I have never done a real CESA, but I have talked to some who have, and the urge to breathe was not an issue for them.

When I was certified as an instructor, we were told to have students use a "normal" rate of ascent. Back than, that was 60 FPM. When I took the exam, the instructor examiner stressed that it was plenty OK for students to exceed that rate. Your goal is to get to the surface, not do some sightseeing on the way up.