Was I Narc'd?

[gcbryan]

But let's recognize that narcosis is a real phenomena, it's not just in peoples' head.

Of course, no one disputes that...I don't think. To me that aspect is well represented.

I just think that discussions of narcosis often lump many differing things into one basket.

I should clarify...even in the most extreme cases I don't think that it's just in their head (not real)...I just think that at 100 fsw it's a lot of anxiety and a little narcosis. At deeper depths it's more narcosis and it may be more anxiety too depending on the person/situation. The narcosis itself to my way of looking at it is a steady continuum. The great variations are other things in addition to narcosis which can make the overall state of the person worse. You can't do much regarding the narcosis other than use helium. You can do something about the other aspects.

 

[Dan Ziegner]

Again, referencing Boulderjohn's experience, "I must have made some sort of intentional switch, but I have no idea why." What blows me away is the possibility of a diver not consciously knowing why he's doing when narced. Think what might have happened if he switched 2nds to a stage bottle of Nitrox 50 or a bottle of O2.

Even after 36 years of diving, I still have to think hard about some things...

 

[Diver Mark]

I know when I start to get narced, because I start feeling weird, it's hard to describe what I feel but it feels like I am in a dreamy state. I think some people don't even know if they are narced. It don't happen all the time, I just dove down to 112 feet a couple days ago and I felt just fine. I went down to 150 feet one time and it took full on concentration because I was out of my mind, so there is know doubt in my mind what being narced is.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

(Emphases in the quote are mine.)

I surmise from the above that you still have no memory of making the 2nd stage switch, is that correct? If so, have you had other instances of memory loss of actions made when diving? It's interesting that you responded to your buddy's light with clarity of thought, but do not seem to remember moments prior. In your post dive thoughts, did you ruminate as to how long you were "blank" to your actions?

I ask because, I have made many hundreds of dives on air deeper than 100' (in the 1970-80's air is all we had), and while I was certainly "narced" to a degree, I always managed it without "going blank".

I've had the same experience as John ... memory impairment seems to be one of my symptoms of narcosis.

... or it could just be old age rearing its ugly head again ... :shocked2:

... Bob (Grateful diver)

 

[pengwe]

A study cited in a recent issue of Dive Training Magazine divided a group of test subjects into three groups, all of which were given the same task to do at 200 feet. Each of the groups were given different training prior to the dive. At one extreme, a group was told that narcosis was inescapable and severely debilitating. At the other extreme, the group was told that narcosis could be overcome by discipline, etc. The three groups performed in accord to their training--one group was almost incapable of performing the task, and at the other extreme the group did just fine.

This indicates to me that the effects of narcosis can be overcome to a certain extent by one's mental attitude. It also suggests to me that experience can be helpful. I do not, however, believe it goes completely away in any circumstance.

Of course, no one really knows anything for sure.

Apparently this study was done by Tom Mount and Gilbert Milner in 1965. Anyone know anything more about it? I'd like to look it up.

What I think is more interesting is the concept that a frequent diver can perhaps adjust or cope at a higher level than a less frequent diver. I know that when I was diving a lot more frequently it seemed to have less effect than now when I dive less.

It still exists and novel problems still are more difficult to deal with than expected ones but I think there (may) be something to this concept.

While I was looking for the 1965 study, I found one that looked at exactly this: they repeated dives over 5 dives, measuring 4 different factors on each dive. There was an actual task, the divers' own estimate of how hard the task was, the divers' own estimate of how narced they were, and the divers' report of bodily sensations. The first two showed no adaptation, the third showed adaptation by the 3rd day, and some of the body sensations seemed to adapt after 3 days and some didn't. Kinda interesting.

 

[Walter]

Walter...it's true that if you're diving narcosis is present as ppn2 is increased (and increasing with depth) but it doesn't add much to the OP's question. It's like saying whatever problem you post about underwater the answer is you're narced.

The other points had already been well covered.

 

[boulderjohn]

Again, referencing Boulderjohn's experience, "I must have made some sort of intentional switch, but I have no idea why." What blows me away is the possibility of a diver not consciously knowing why he's doing when narced. Think what might have happened if he switched 2nds to a stage bottle of Nitrox 50 or a bottle of O2.

Even after 36 years of diving, I still have to think hard about some things...

I am pretty sure, as I explained earlier, that I had a perfectly good reason to do it at the time--I just don't remember it. I think it would have taken a whole lot more confusion for me to switch to a 50% bottle at 130 feet, since there is no reason whatsoever to do so. There is a big difference between not remembering a reasonably rational act and doing something wholly irrational.

And if I did something so wholly irrational, my buddy should be able to step in. That is why you do training. Switching to a 50% bottle is not a novel act when you do it. You have practiced it many times, and part of that practice is getting confirmation from your buddy taht you are doing the right thing. I would have to be completely out of my mind to make such a switch at that depth in a manner totally inconsistent with my training.

 

[Dan Ziegner]

I am pretty sure, as I explained earlier, that I had a perfectly good reason to do it at the time--I just don't remember it. I think it would have taken a whole lot more confusion for me to switch to a 50% bottle at 130 feet, since there is no reason whatsoever to do so. There is a big difference between not remembering a reasonably rational act and doing something wholly irrational.

I agree with your assessment of this incident. I'm just going over the possibilities, as I have not experienced a similar event.

 

[gcbryan]

Maybe it's not that DIR divers are conditioned to believe they are going to be narced. Maybe we face ourselves with a lot more problem solving at 100 feet or deeper than most (at least recreational) divers do? It's pretty clear that, if you aren't trying to solve novel problems, you may be completely unaware of any impairment.

Maybe better in another thread or perhaps not but maybe you could describe in more detail the problem solving that's below 100 fsw that you're referring to. Are you simply referring to the additional problems with overhead environments are would you still say the same thing in an OW situation?

FYI- if I were to go in an overhead environment (no plans to) it would be with helium in the mix. What are you referring to outside of that situation?

 

[lowviz]

Maybe better in another thread or perhaps not but maybe you could describe in more detail the problem solving that's below 100 fsw that you're referring to. Are you simply referring to the additional problems with overhead environments are would you still say the same thing in an OW situation?

FYI- if I were to go in an overhead environment (no plans to) it would be with helium in the mix. What are you referring to outside of that situation?

gybryan and the OP,

I'm not answering for TSandM, Lynne will give you a better answer, but here is my viewpoint:
First, I'm not DIR, just heading into extended range. I would have said 'tech' but it annoys Walter, and I can't help liking the guy, -against my better judgement.

For me, the everyday narc is like standing in front of the mirror in the morning, holding up my razor and waiting for my operating system to load. I pretty much know what I'm doing, very capable of injuring myself, but reasonably secure in this practiced environment. fuzzed out, but basically fine.

problem solving:
My gas switch computer is set to prompt me to switch to whatever gas mix I have set as active when I reach the maximum operating depth of that particular gas. I can press a button on my computer to let it know I'm switching, or just ignore it. This is a 'problem solving' decision. Going to pure O2 at depth would be fatal, or just very bad. This is why I don't have that certification yet. This is also 'problem solving' that I am not allowed to do yet. When my instructor is comfortable with me, I will take that course. Drifting through wrecks covered with fishing line and nets is also problem solving at its best. Doing all this while preserving the buddy system is also problem solving. Same as recreational, just ratcheted up a notch due to added complexity.

Don't belittle the problems that you have to solve on every recreational dive...