Was I Narc'd?

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I really hate to break it to all of you but I just realized what the narcosis is. I saw it on tv sunday night. It is a confundus charm put on you by the merpeople when you get too close to one of their locations. The tv program actually brought back a repressed memory of these guys. It must have been a glancing blow as the charm could have been deflected by the sprite that was caught unawares and in the line of fire. I am still recovering memories of the whole incident. Only problem is the most vivid one has a BIG resemblance to Dolly Parton and Air Force Amy if you know what I mean. I just can;t seem to get past that part. Not complaining just stating a fact. Thank God for J.K. Rowlings and Harry Potter or I might never have remembered this and we'd all still be in the dark.
 
gybryan and the OP,

I'm not answering for TSandM, Lynne will give you a better answer, but here is my viewpoint:
First, I'm not DIR, just heading into extended range. I would have said 'tech' but it annoys Walter, and I can't help liking the guy, -against my better judgement.

For me, the everyday narc is like standing in front of the mirror in the morning, holding up my razor and waiting for my operating system to load. I pretty much know what I'm doing, very capable of injuring myself, but reasonably secure in this practiced environment. fuzzed out, but basically fine.

problem solving:
My gas switch computer is set to prompt me to switch to whatever gas mix I have set as active when I reach the maximum operating depth of that particular gas. I can press a button on my computer to let it know I'm switching, or just ignore it. This is a 'problem solving' decision. Going to pure O2 at depth would be fatal, or just very bad. This is why I don't have that certification yet. This is also 'problem solving' that I am not allowed to do yet. When my instructor is comfortable with me, I will take that course. Drifting through wrecks covered with fishing line and nets is also problem solving at its best. Doing all this while preserving the buddy system is also problem solving. Same as recreational, just ratcheted up a notch due to added complexity.

Don't belittle the problems that you have to solve on every recreational dive...

I'm not belittling the problems...I just haven't had a problem solving them. Regarding gas switching, it shouldn't be a problem for the deco gasses since you are generally going to be at either 70 fsw (50%) or 20 fsw (100%). If your dive is deep enough that you have travel mix and bottom mix then that is an issue.

If you don't use a computer and that's adding the complexity then one choice would be to just get a computer. I'm just considering why diving needs to be so complex?
 
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Oh, WHY do I read Basic Scuba Discussions? It BUGS me at times and then I just CAN'T keep my mouth shut. So, here we go again, this will be a LONG one...

OK, what follows is the "alternative" view to Narcosis. A word of caution. All these nice folks responding to this topic have undoubtedly convinced most people reading that you ARE narced ANYTIME you might feel "unusual" below 50 FT. As a result, you probably now believe it and are anticipating such effects when diving. Please keep believing it because I don't want to try and change your mind!

That said, and since some posts in this thread have compared narcosis and drinking, let's first talk about that. I go into a bar. Let's say I'm an occasional social drinker. It’s been a rough day on ScubaBoard, the DIR folks have been driving me crazy (JUST JOKING !!!). I have 5 beers over one hour then leave. A few minutes later I swerve on the road and get pulled by a passing cop. I pass only a few of the sobriety tests the officer gives me and blow a .15 on the meter. I think everyone reading this would probably agree that I’d be just as drunk regardless of if the bartender said “don’t worry about it, you’ll be fine – you can handle it,” or if I had attended a MADD meeting earlier in the evening warning about the tragedies and consequences of drunk driving. The point is, my ATTITUDE about drinking wouldn't have affected the outcome.

Now, let's change the scenario. I'm a new diver. I don't read ScubaBoard (GASP!). My instructor tells me that Narcosis is a problem, but one that can be managed. He discusses the warning signs, how to "prepare" for narcosis during a deeper dive, what to be careful with. My friend, who's taking a class at another shop, does the "home reading" course and glosses over narcosis. He reads ScubaBoard instead and gets LOTS of opinions. He’s told that "diving deep on air is BAD, AVOID it at ALL costs because you WILL get narced and you could DIE!" During his class, the instructor makes an offhand remark that "everyone diving deeper than 80 FT gets narced to some degree." My buddy hears it and believes it.

A few months pass. My friend and I do several dives, between 30 and 60 FT. We decide to do a boat dive on a wreck, to a max depth of 110 FT. Both of us dive air. When we get to the deepest bottom, my friend acts "weird." He doesn't respond to hand signals and is in obvious danger. He's narced. I get control of him, help him to the anchor line and we head to the surface. Back on the boat, he can't remember any particulars of the dive or what happened. On the other hand, I remember everything including how I "rescued" him off the bottom, what depth we were at and what our BT was when the incident happened.

So what was the difference between my friend and I? For argument's sake let's say both of us are about of equal size and weight. We took similar classes and have identical experience. BUT, I was told that narcosis could be MANAGED and I believed it. My friend, on the other hand, learned that he would probably get narced no matter what he did and, while in class, his instructor more or less confirmed this. So, he got narced because he believed he would.

This "effect" is called “anticipated behavior modeling” and was observed and tested with divers as test subjects back in 1965 by George Milner and Tom Mount (the same guy who became the head of IANTD). For a summary of the study that others have asked for in this thread, click here. DAN also discusses this "issue" in terms of decreasing diver "anxiety." For that article, click here. The key finding to take away from both these papers is that purely on the basis of knowledge, education and ATTITUDE, one can be better prepared for the effects of narcosis and perform better in the actual environment. Diver experience alone, in the Mount-Milner study, was NOT a factor that contributed to performance differences between the groups. Please NOTE that last observation.

So, in my opinion, there IS a BIG difference between N2 and alcohol. No matter how much you “know” about beer and drinking, if you drink 5 beers you can still get drunk and still become impaired. But, it’s NOT the same for diving. All things equal between two divers, if one diver has been taught about the effects of narcosis, is prepared for it and has the right ATTITUDE, 5 ATM of pressure won't always impair this diver, even when the diver has minimal experience. BUT, conversely, if another diver was told of the "negative effect" of narcosis and was also told that he or she "couldn't prevent it," that diver WOULD most likely be impaired. This effect, identified as “anticipated behavior modeling,” is NOT something that occurs when one consumes alcohol.

So what am I trying to say here? Well, it's not always the depth that contributes to the "problem" of narcosis. Instead, it's YOUR degree of diving "comfort," the environmental conditions and the task loading that you experience underwater. When you are "used" to a routine, you can prepare yourself mentally for what will PROBABLY happen (even train for it). BUT, start adding "new" stuff (especially a new dive site, new equipment, unexpected circumstances, etc., i.e., less "known" stuff) and unintended effects will occur. You lose the "focus" you have adjusted to and become susceptible to narcosis. Just read most of the responses to this thread about when and how people experience narcosis and you can see that. This is why narcosis might occur one time but not another to the same diver. “Focus” is the reason why NASA trains astronauts again and again and AGAIN in the NBL prior to a mission. They make stuff "routine" in order to reduce cognitive stress. This prevents mistakes and “issues” from becoming PROBLEMS.

I hope my point to all of this is obvious. It's NOT the gas or depth that always matters. It's the TRAINING and EXPERIENCE. If you are "routinely getting narced" at any depth, PLEASE ask WHY it's happening and re-examine the circumstances that lead up to it. I think it's unfortunate that diver education has become so "hands off" these days and quarries seem to be acceptable for any type of certification dive.

Just my thoughts...
 
If you are "routinely getting narced" at any depth, PLEASE ask WHY it's happening and re-examine the circumstances that lead up to it.

You know, I really think this is unfair. Narcosis is real; at extreme depths, it has killed people.

I got horribly narced at the beginning of my diving career (hallucinated) and didn't go deep for quite a while afterward. When I went back to the 100 foot range, it wasn't as bad. Although I think about narcosis, I haven't really felt funny or impaired in quite a while, and wondered if the whole thing might have been what a new diver I was at the time.

Until I went and took this cave diving class in Florida, and watched me and my buddy (whose skills I pretty much know) just completely mangle managing situations that are really child's play for us these days, under normal circumstances. At 100 feet and swimming hard into flow, we were just plain stupid -- AND we didn't feel different at all.
 
You know, I really think this is unfair. Narcosis is real; at extreme depths, it has killed people.

I got horribly narced at the beginning of my diving career (hallucinated) and didn't go deep for quite a while afterward. When I went back to the 100 foot range, it wasn't as bad. Although I think about narcosis, I haven't really felt funny or impaired in quite a while, and wondered if the whole thing might have been what a new diver I was at the time.

Until I went and took this cave diving class in Florida, and watched me and my buddy (whose skills I pretty much know) just completely mangle managing situations that are really child's play for us these days, under normal circumstances. At 100 feet and swimming hard into flow, we were just plain stupid -- AND we didn't feel different at all.

But are you saying that if you had been on 30/30 the class would have gone smoothly and there would have been no problems? Or were there other factors (besides narcosis) that were more of a factor. For instance, given your hallucination incident..the narcotic level at 100 fsw hasn't changed since that dive...other factors have. Is it correct to primarily attribute that incidence to narcosis?

My questions are entirely different than arguing that narcosis doesn't exist or isn't a factor. I'm just wondering if the term isn't misused a bit.

I'm sure your scientific view of narcosis and mine are the same. Starts at descent, increases with depth, it's (I guess) linear. But the day to day changes aren't changes in the narcosis. They're changes in the person apart from the narcosis.
 
There's little doubt in my mind that cold and darkness are amplifying factors, effecting the depth of significant onset, the degree of narcosis and the "style" of the narc.
 
There's little doubt in my mind that cold and darkness are amplifying factors, effecting the depth of significant onset, the degree of narcosis and the "style" of the narc.

I'm sure you're right. From your posts it sounds like you have plenty of experience with both. Mine is mainly cold and quite often it's at night and even when it isn't night it's still dark (all dives require strong lights).

However, I've often wondered if it was cold and darkness that makes the difference or rather what you are used to?

Cold and dark is what I'm used to. Is it the actual cold and dark or is it just that those are more difficult environments when you aren't used to them?
 
I've done a lot of diving cold and dark, a lot of diving cold and light (in the Arctic), a lot of diving warm and dark (but that tends to be rather shallow) and a lot of diving warm and light. I'd say that light level is a major factor and temperature is a secondary one.
 
I've done a lot of diving cold and dark, a lot of diving cold and light (in the Arctic), a lot of diving warm and dark (but that tends to be rather shallow) and a lot of diving warm and light. I'd say that light level is a major factor and temperature is a secondary one.

Stands to reason as the temp is somewhat controllable (drysuit, etc). Within these types however it still varies a lot as in one deep, cold, dark dive goes well and another less so.

I'd have to say that perhaps dark and low viz are more important factors rather than just dark.
 
It always amazes me, the number of people who insist that narcosis has a threshold effect. The pharmacokinetics of anesthetic gases don't work that way. I'm a Martinis rule fan, myself.

- so here's the weird thing: i don't dive "deep" (>30m) with any frequency at all, but the first time i did a 40m dive i "felt" normal at 38m, then dropped down another to 39m and suddenly got a warm glowing feeling rising through my body like i'd just knocked back 3 cognacs in quick succession. it was such a sudden feeling that it alerted me to the fact that i was probably narc'ed & should make an extra effort to pay attention.

maybe this just makes me a cheap drunk, but if other people have experienced a similar physiological (psychosomatic?) effect then it could explain why the "threshold" idea is popular...
 

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