WARNING***Ebay selling unsafe cyl

[The Chairman]

You got released from a bad sale... all is well that ends well!

as for

The 6351-T6 cylinders are still safe for use and have not been recalled

that is only partially true. Many LDSs refuse to fill those cylinders, even with current hydro and VIP. I don't buy the argument that they are doing this to boost tank sales... because tanks are often loss leaders in an LDS. The people are genuinely AFRAID of these tanks. What good is a tank that can't be filled? Also, Luxfer's $50 trade in is their way to make up for the flaws that are present. So while it is technically not a recall, I do see it as a confession of having bad product.

The report I read from the DOT stated that sooner or later ALL of the 6351 alloyed cylinders will crack. Thats right, at the current failure rate, they anticipate that close to %100 of these tanks will fail in service. Not a matter of "if" but more of "when". While there have been very few deaths (thanks to the voluntary VIP program) there have been FAR more than 1% that have failed through SLD cracking. No, Luxfer will not reveal that figure and Walter Kidde is Out of Business. Maybe less than 1% have "popped" under pressure, but then again that is due to the VIP program.

As for

Your message is well intentioned but is alarmist, uninformed and over reactionary.

Buying a cylinder that can't be filled for whatever reason is a bummer. While all of us still have a lot to learn (including vr, goldhunter_2, and myself) I found his post totally within reason. His alarm about E-Bay is valid, he knew enough to ask questions here, and his reactions were comparable to any normal citizen in his situation.

BTW, I am PSI Tank Inspector #12694.

 

[cdennyb]

I personally have been buying and selling used scuba cylinders for quite sometime now...and finally got a bad one. I didn't buy it "bad", on the contrary, I used it for over a year, got it hydro'ed/inspected/filled, and used it for another year and a half. This past week I decided to top off all my tanks for a little new years day dive trip my daughter (15 yrs old) and I had planned. I filled my double 80's, another 80 single and this last single 80 was just getting started. At 1500 psi I heard the pressure relief valve pop-off. (Or so I thought at first!) and after careful and quick examination with my bare hand and ears, I found the leak at the neck of the cylinder. I first dismissed the sound as an o-ring failure, a hose rupture, and even a over pressure valve failure! I gently let the hose go, shut down the compressor, closed the fill valve and let the tank off gas on it's own for a half-hour while I watched from about a mile away!
I have taken several pics and I'm trying to get Luxfer to exchange with me, but I don't think I'm going to get too far. Maybe I'll get a voucher, maybe not. Whatever the outcome, I'm grateful that God let me find the leak and not my daughter while diving at 60' or whatever and certainly without a violent explosion!
I buy from ebay all the time, tanks included, and if you're smart enough to read what the stampings mean, and don't buy unless you get a photo of them, then you deserve to buy a bad cylinder. Do the homework, make a valid educated guess and decision and then live with it. I know I am.
Remember:
Life is a terminal disease, no-one gets out alive.
db

 

[pasley]

From what I have read, the cracks in the neck start small and as they get bigger, the air just leaks out. Like someone else said here, there does not seem to be an over-abundance of reports of catastrophic explosions occurring as a result of this. Buying a used tank off ebay is no different than buying a used tank anywhere. You take the same risks.

True, many tanks leak, but some do explode (DOT website http://hazmat.dot.gov/rules/not99_11.htm: "To date, we are aware of twelve ruptures within the United States involving DOT-3AL cylinders made of aluminum alloy 6351-T6, dating back to September 1986.").

All it takes is one that explodes to ruin your day. The pictures are scary. Some people have lost their legs, hands and in one case their life.
http://www.floridatoday.com/news/local/stories/2001/nov/loc112001e.htm

Either way, it is not somthing to take a chance on, IMHO.

My experience on e-bay is as follows.
I have seen several of the DOT Safety Notice Tanks for sale. I have notified the seller and provided the DOT links as well as links to stories of the explosions and let them know how to "read the code on the tank" so they could verify what I could plainly see in the photos of the tank that they were the "subject tanks".

In all but one case they always calim to "know nothing about SCUBA" or the tanks. In only one case did the seller after being given the information and the website to DOT change their add. All others left the add as it orginally was and sold the tanks to unsuspecting buyers. I contacted one bid winner and let them know. Seller was...well let's just say angry. But he knew before the sale that the tanks had a safety notice on them.

Now here is a question for the legal eagles out there. Once the seller has been informed, provided the DOT link as well as links to stories of the tanks exploding, is there any liability on their part if they do not disclose it? What if the worst happens and a diver is injured by a tank the seller knew was on the DOT Safety notice list?

 

[pasley]

...
It amazes me somethimes what people will buy on Ebay without thinking it though... I just had a customer yesterday call us to check what it costs to get a tank inspected. He bought a tank on Ebay for $60.00, paid $30 shipping, and it is out of hydro - another $30 for hydro, vip, fill - so he's out $120 for a used tank - and we sell brand new ones for $124.95....

I too am amused by what I see on e-bay. I have seen the bidding go over the cost of what my local SCUBA store sells new tanks for, and then, as you said, there is still shipping, Vis and Hydro to consider. Go figure. :silly:

 

[archman]

There are heaps of postings on this board regarding 6351 alloys, Luxfer, sustained load cracking, etc.. there are far more opinions and incomplete factoids regarding these cylinders than I would have thought possible.

Here's a handy and EASY TO READ site from Luxfer.
http://www.luxfercylinders.com/support/faq/sustainedloadcracking.shtml

The statistics of dangerous incidents involving these tanks is virtually zero... SMALL fractions of one percent. Under any rational reasoning this would not be considered an unsafe or dangerous level. Testing programs in place and planned for the future will maintain or reduce even this negligible risk.

 

[ScubaJewel]

Keep in mind that these tanks are not Illegal to fill, sell, or use, if all are done properly.

Proper testing of the tanks will show any defects and hardly any are ever found.

I really think that manufactures of the scuba tanks in question are bowing to industry pressure to do something about these tanks.

I also think that dive shops are using the scare factor to their advantage by not filling the "dangerous tanks" after all they are doing you a service when they sell you a new one... arent they? I have personally witnessed (more times than I care to admit) people being sold new tanks the very day they are told their tanks can no longer be filled.

dive shops not filling these tanks is simply a matter of policy on the part of the individual dive shop and nothing else.

You may just simply want to locate a dive shop that will fill the tank you purchased and dive happy (assuming that the tanks testing is current)

Here in Seattle only about 1/2 of the shops won't fill these tanks. The other 1/2 are happy to fill them.

Julie

 

[metaldector]

The offer had a limited time. It ends on 31 December of this 2003. After that date they will no longer exchange the tanks. The deal gives you a $50 certificate that can be used toward buying another Luxfer tank (no other use allowed). But now it is too late. Program is over.

 

[mikediveguy]

we've ' only' had 1 tank explode up here about 3 years ago...it went as it was being filled,, so now all local shops require vis plus, and don't fill tanks older than 1980

 

[FreeFloat]

I usually tell new divers not to buy tanks for at least the first year.

Unless you dive a couple of times a week, use an oddball size, or head for the boonies for extended trips, renting tanks from the LDS is probably cheaper and certainly easier.

I'm a newbie myself, but I qualify for two of your "exclusions" - I dive at least once a week and usually more like 2-3 (with the exception of the last 2 weeks, Christmas holidays got in the way). I was cert 26 Oct and now have 15 dives. I also typically use nothing much larger than a steel 72 - I'm good on gas so there's not too much point for my to attach myself to a monster tank.

However, due in part to Christmas, I now own 2 tanks - a brand new PST LP 80 steel, and a used AL80. Bought the AL80 myself and got it with really current vis and hydro as one of the conditions of sale.

Just my 2¢ worth...

 

[archman]

we've ' only' had 1 tank explode up here about 3 years ago...it went as it was being filled,, so now all local shops require vis plus, and don't fill tanks older than 1980

That tank (april 1999) is listed on Luxfer's site, along with the 7 other scuba tanks known to have ruptured between 1994 and 2001... worldwide. The department of transportation does not have it listed under the tanks that underwent metallurgical analysis, maybe it's on some other list they have. All the reported U.S. ruptures during that time period were in Florida (4 total). If anyone has a reason not to fill 6351 alloys, it's that state.

Tank ruptures seem to have the same effect on dive shop operators as terrorist acts on the public. Even the hint of a potential scare and everything goes nuts. I suppose if a 6061 alloy ever ruptures, people will refuse to fill those too.

I can't find any official records of tank ruptures after 2001. Maybe the warranty expires on 6351 tanks after that time, ha ha.