Warning: Bad Belize Dive Experience

[ScubaSteve]

DD. agreed. BUT I still say that divers and especially divers on vacation resort dives have to be very careful and hyper vigilant and critical of these yahoo cowboy dive ops who do not take this activity seriously. Here and elsewhere there are pages filled with accident reports about dive ops who were needlessly reckless and people died. I'm tired of hearing complaints about 'ugly Ameticans' who bitch about sloppy dive ops as being hyper critical! Too bad for them. I want to hear the truth. So I can avoid giving them my Yankee money! Onward!

If you care to read the A&I forum, it is loaded with primarily diver error and/or health issues. Dive ops are rarely the cause of a Diver's death.

 

[Mike]

What's your point, Mike? I haven't said that everything's right and there are no problems. Indeed, I've tried to highlight some of them. But what good does it do in raising false criticisms of a single operator, and saying that they are the Devil incarnate? This operator may well have made mistakes, but not so many or so serious as to justify all the phlegm above. I think TS&M's response is maybe the best I've seen so far. As to the US Govt warning, I'm afraid it comes over as arrogant and self-regarding. I've dived a great deal in various parts of the US and recreational diving standards there are not the highest I've come across.

The point is your last post that I responded to where you clear the dive op of any chance of being anything but the safest dive op in Belize, and the reality of the report by the OP which describes to a T the same duplicate reports by many others of diving in Belize.

This thread is just another in a long line of reports by divers who are shocked at the shoddy dive safety by Belize dive operations. You could cut and paste the OP's report into any of the many others that have been written here and they are identical, yet the OP is being treated like a hysterical diver, or a diver who takes no responsibility for his/her own safety.

How many times does it have to be reported about Belize dive operators taking brand new, totally un-qualified divers to 130 ft and even 150ft and more? How many times does it have to be reported about divers going OOA on dive after dive at the blue hole, before we all just stop the bull sh*t and admit the facts that Belize dive operators are operating the blue hole dive site as the worlds most popular trust me dive on the planet??????

As I stated in an earlier post, 1/2 what the OP reports is identical to what is reported all the time in regard to a Belize blue hole dive, the other 1/2 of what the OP reported is what you find all over the world when diving with a bargain dive operator.

Belize is developing the reputation it deserves by the dive operators operating there.

I might not be able to find it, but I'm having a hard time finding any State Department warnings specifically for scuba diving other than Belize. They may exist but I don't find them. That's quite a notorious reputation to have developed that the State Department issues warnings specifically in regard to scuba diving for an entire country!

You, yourself have jumped back and forth on different posts you've written between how safe the diving is in Belize, to how dangerous it is, even posting the truth of the matter that the dive industry would suffer in dive quantities to the blue hole if dive operators in Belize followed your own prescribed thoughts on how to approach diving the blue hole safely which would involve instruction.

 

[DevonDiver]

You could cut and paste the OP's report into any of the many others that have been written here and they are identical,..

There are some things that can be learnt from 'trends'. None of those things should automatically be considered as evidence to support any given single report.

- Trend/Claim: Dissatisfaction with diving services in Belize. Discussion: Is there a case for a revision of expectation management, by U.S. divers diving outside of the U.S.A?

- Trend/Claim: Belize diving is unsafe. Discussion: Belize applies less stringent regulations to diving operations that those in effect in the USA. Do these regulations, or lack thereof, directly impact upon safety, verified through accident statistics?

- Trend/Claim: Diving operations in Belize do not fulfill their requirements to divers. Discussion: What specific provision of service should be expected from a diving operation, on the grounds of safety, accounting for the division of responsibilities laid out in scuba training globally?

...yet the OP is being treated like a hysterical diver,...

The OP has been treated on the basis of what they wrote and how they expressed it. That's the problem with writing thread titles in BLOCK CAPS, mis-representing some non-safety issues as catastrophically dangerous events...and re-posting dozens of passive-aggressive identical PMs sent to thread contributors who did something other than sympathize and agree with the OP.

...or a diver who takes no responsibility for his/her own safety.

Some of the points raised, indicate a failure to apply basic principles and procedures taught at entry-level to ensure safety. As these are taught to divers, and not demanded of dive boats, one might decipher where the industry/community feels that responsibility for their conduct lies..

As I stated in an earlier post, 1/2 what the OP reports is identical to what is reported all the time in regard to a Belize blue hole dive, the other 1/2 of what the OP reported is what you find all over the world when diving with a bargain dive operator.

If we talk of 'trends in reporting', I see an equal trend on Scubaboard that expresses dissatisfaction with diving operations making individual business policies that apply limitations to divers. Many of those posts/threads specifically mention the 'application of depth limitations' and that 'there are no scuba police'. Furthermore that 'a diver is free to choose their own limits, as they feel fit'.

Should Belize dive centers, and or government regulations, be strengthened to remove freedom of choice from visiting divers - in respect of the dive sites they choose to visit and the dive plans they choose to conduct?

Should divers be discouraged from setting, and applying, personal limits in their diving... in favor of the imposition of strict, universally applied, limits that a dive center is mandated, via law, to impose on customers?

Belize is developing the reputation it deserves by the dive operators operating there.

That's your opinion. 'Reputation' is a regional perception, I believe.. and/or specific to a certain demographic. 'Deserved' is another matter of perception.

 

[Mike]

The OP has been treated on the basis of what they wrote and how they expressed it. That's the problem with writing thread titles in BLOCK CAPS, mis-representing some non-safety issues as catastrophically dangerous events...and re-posting dozens of passive-aggressive identical PMs sent to thread contributors who did something other than sympathize and agree with the OP.

I have to agree that the OP has clouded the issues with what you described. The GPS issue stands out to me as an example. Obviously people have been navigating for many hundreds of years without GPS, and not using it isn't a significant sign of a problem if the dive op is finding the dive sites without any trouble. That being said, the OP's personality and issues reported that are irrelevant doesn't change the relevancy of the other issues which are the same things being reported again and again and again about Belize operators and the blue hole. More than one Belize dive operation is more focused on the pursuit of diving dollars than diving safety when it comes to exploitation of Belize's number one diving cash cow, known as the blue hole.

Peter has expressed the frustration of being a dive operator who operates in the market place that he does, he's outlined a proper safety plan that would make diving the blue hole much safer, he doesn't lack the expertise in diving, he knows what should be done, he lacks the expertise in business savvy to realize he could be turning a negative into a positive, turning his competitions weakness into his advantage. Scubaboard is the perfect place to develop a specific clientel that is looking for a dive operation who isn't like the rest, by being the voice of concern.

 

[DevonDiver]

... other issues which are the same things being reported again and again and again about Belize operators and the blue hole. More than one Belize dive operation is more focused on the pursuit of diving dollars than diving safety when it comes to exploitation of Belize's number one diving cash cow, known as the blue hole.

I agree that there is an issue with the Blue Hole and the relative competency of divers who are taken there.

However, I am not clear on the solution to that problem. Placing blame of the dive operators is not necessarily the best outlook for invoking a change.

1) Divers are taught to set their own personal limits, to dive plan, to adhere to buddy system, to monitor depth and time etc.

2) Divers are given agency recommended limits with respect to depth and diving conditions - relative to their training and experience.

3) Dive operators are not given any agency/industry recommendations with regards to points 1-2.

4) Any risk assessment for diving has to be based on (a) factors concerned the dive and (b) factors concerning the participant diver/s.

5) A dive operation is not best equipped to conduct risk assessments for individual divers. The individual diver, however, is well equipped to do that.

6) If risk assessment (by diver or operator) were not used to specify appropriate competency for specific dives, then another method of regulation would be needed.

7) The only (?) other method/s of regulation would require the mandatory imposition of training and experience thresholds for specific dives.

8) The mandatory imposition of training/experience thresholds would have to come from some governing body. Where no scuba industry body exists, the relevant government would be forced to involve itself in the macro-regulation of scuba diving activities, through creation of legal legislation.

9) Mandatory imposition of training/experience thresholds would penalize any diver whose profile didn't meet the specifics of mandated regulations. Such regulations would be likely to be very generic in scope, based upon a consensus of agency recommendations, turned into legislation.

10) The issue of diving safety in Belize and/or specifically at the Blue Hole dive are not (?) supported through any significant deviation from global norms in respect of diving accidents. There is a perception of safety risk, not evidence of it.

The major premise of the 'problematic issue' of the Blue Hole revolves around a perceived disparity between the competence required for the dive and the competence exhibited by the divers who elect to undertake the dive. It is being proven that divers elect to undertake that dive without conducting an effective personal risk assessment or applying personal limits, as they are taught. The proposed solution seems to be that regulation is needed to compensate for that failure. For some reason, the dive centers are being blamed for not yet instituting a regulation that doesn't exist. They are deemed 'unsafe' in the course of that blame.

On a personal note, what I see in a lot of these 'warnings/complaints' is not much more than "I elected to do this dive. I think the dive operator was irresponsible for letting me do this dive.." Go figure...

 

[boulderjohn]

4) Any risk assessment for diving has to be based on (a) factors concerned the dive and (b) factors concerning the participant diver/s.

5) A dive operation is not best equipped to conduct risk assessments for individual divers. The individual diver, however, is well equipped to do that.

6) If risk assessment (by diver or operator) were not used to specify appropriate competency for specific dives, then another method of regulation would be needed.

7) The only (?) other method/s of regulation would require the mandatory imposition of training and experience thresholds for specific dives.

Isn't that how its done in lots of places around the world? Did you ever see the mock video "Hitler isn't AOW," in which the premise of the humor is how hard it is to dive in certain areas if you don't have an AOW card? An AOW card may not mean a lot, but it is a lot more than having first time divers do the dive, as happens routinely. You act as if doing something that is routinely done around the world is just asking the impossible.

 

[Mike]

10) The issue of diving safety in Belize and/or specifically at the Blue Hole dive are not (?) supported through any significant deviation from global norms in respect of diving accidents. There is a perception of safety risk, not evidence of it.

What reported statistics are you basing that on? Belize like many other tourist dive locations like it benefits from the lack of transparency and reporting of incidents. Incident reports, and the numerous near misses don't make it beyond the local community except for places such as this website and others. And as they do get reported their are a number of people who do their best to discredit the reporter. It's well known that for the most part locals do their best to minimize the publicity of accidents and incidents. The chamber on AC isn't running as often as it is for practice.

The major premise of the 'problematic issue' of the Blue Hole revolves around a perceived disparity between the competence required for the dive and the competence exhibited by the divers who elect to undertake the dive. It is being proven that divers elect to undertake that dive without conducting an effective personal risk assessment or applying personal limits, as they are taught. The proposed solution seems to be that regulation is needed to compensate for that failure. For some reason, the dive centers are being blamed for not yet instituting a regulation that doesn't exist. They are deemed 'unsafe' in the course of that blame.

When there is a penalty such as tourism dollars being reduced due to tourists being aware of unsafe practices and accidents there tends to be SELF regulation that takes place. Examples of the long history of self-regulation in the dive industry is demonstrated by the very fundamental act of asking to see a C-card. Dive centers tend to self regulate when there are consequences to not doing so. As said the Belize dive community does a great job at self-censoring what happens there and therefore the cowboy mentality of make money off dumb, newbie divers by promoting the practice of the three monkeys- see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil is alive and well as long as they can keep the hush hush going.

On a personal note, what I see in a lot of these 'warnings/complaints' is not much more than "I elected to do this dive. I think the dive operator was irresponsible for letting me do this dive.." Go figure...

I have not seen much of what you are saying, instead I've seen a lot of divers reporting their experiences and their observations, many of which are watching newbies being taken to 130-150ft plus and going OOA, sometimes divers even on their first open water dives. Dive masters do not promote buddy teams as their method of operation is to have a dive master ride herd on the divers in order to deal with the buoyancy and OOA situations as fast as possible.

 

[peterbj7]

Mike - you are degrading your message by overstating it.

 

[Lorenzoid]

If I heeded State Department Travel Warnings, I'd never get out of the country.

I felt the water taxis in Belize were significantly safer than, say, the ferries in Indonesia. I'll never forget being herded inside, cramped like sardines, with only the one exit as far as I could see, the engines cutting out several times during the trip requiring the mate to play mechanic, and then the ferry stopping to gas up and watching him smoking during the process. My only thought was "Can I reach my BC in time to use it as a flotation device?" Of course, in Indonesia visiting divers tend to use planes more than ferries these days, which is the opposite of Belize where we rely on them.

 

[Hank49]

As far as Belize improving its safety record and image as being the Wild West of Diving, I have a suggestion.

Why not just do 80-100 foot max depth dives in the Blue Hole? Honestly, seeing a bunch of stalagmites and stalagmites doesn't thrill me at all. It was interesting to get in the water at this unique site but I was looking at the huge barracuda near the surface and the sharks. Other than that....not much to see. Stalagtites? Are you kidding? If you're really into that, sign up for cave diving.
Belize, overall, isn't deserving of the reputation it's getting. There are well managed and safe shops here. The Blue Hole is the reason for 90% of the complaints and yes, there are some shade ops. But that's the case anywhere pretty much.
And, we have very unpredictable weather here at times. Yesterday was supposed to be 5-8 kt winds. I cross to Turneffe and while there, the wind kicked up from S east to N east and to about 25 kts with the crossing swells peaking underneath the boat boat at times, surfing us down the face. Pretty wild and a lot of throttle control. It was only due to my expert skill at driving the Carrot Juice that we made it back. Honestly, it would have scared the hell out of first time people on the sea. It happens. But a dive op would have gone out based on weather predictions. It's not their fault but then the'll get labeled as "unsafe".