Warning: Bad Belize Dive Experience

[DeputyDan]

A simple question - if you're a PADI professional dive master, are you within proper PADI procedures knowingly taking a diver beyond their training? For example would a PADI certified dive professional be following proper PADI procedures if you knowingly took a diver with only OW training and 4 previous dives to 152 feet?

Are there any repercussions if the PADI certified dive professional is in violation of PADI procedures?

You assume a dive master has been trained through the standards of a certified training agency. But, have you ever seen the c-card of any dive professional at a location like Roatan, Belize, etc.

I also assume that they are certified, but I really don't care because I am not going to just follow them to depths, enclosed places etc. that I wouldn't do if they were not there.

 

[Mike]

I'm not assuming anything, I simply am asking the question.

Here is the question again.

A simple question - if you're a PADI professional dive master, are you within proper PADI procedures knowingly taking a diver beyond their training? For example would a PADI certified dive professional be following proper PADI procedures if you knowingly took a diver with only OW training and 4 previous dives to 152 feet?

Are there any repercussions if the PADI certified dive professional is in violation of PADI procedures?

 

[Hawkwood]

We visited Belize a few years ago and stayed at Turneffe Island Resort. I found them to be a very safe dive operation and wouldn't hesitate to go back again or recommend them to a friend. We did go to the Blue Hole one day and we were given a dive brief on how the dive was to be conducted and the max depth we would be going to. They made sure they let folks know that if they didn't feel comfortable going to those depths, they didn't have to do the dive or could stay closer to the top of the hole and look around there. I think our max depth was about 140 ft. I didn't see anything we did as being "unsafe".

:luxhello:

We stayed at the same resort also a few years ago. After the briefing the four of us chose the other option and stayed up. It really is easy to make your own mind up and not have someone do it for you.

 

[DevonDiver]

A simple question - if you're a PADI professional dive master, are you within proper PADI procedures knowingly taking a diver beyond their training? For example would a PADI certified dive professional be following proper PADI procedures if you knowingly took a diver with only OW training and 4 previous dives to 152 feet?

It would be contrary to what PADI state in their 'Safe Diving Practices' - with respect to diving within the 'limits of training and experience'. Whilst other depths are 'recommended' maximums, PADI do state that 40m/130ft is the absolute maximum for recreational scuba divers

PADI consider dives beyond 40m/130ft to be 'technical diving', thus requiring appropriate training and the application of more extensive procedures and equipment.

The stated absolute maximum depth applies to dive pros, just as much as regular divers.

Are there any repercussions if the PADI certified dive professional is in violation of PADI procedures?[/QUOTE]

We all know that PADI have no specific 'standards' for the conduct of non-training dives.

I think that most of us would agree that there would be safety benefits if such standards were applied - based upon the application of safe diving practices and the 'professional' training provided to divemasters... especially if that were linked with PADI's formal QA process.

At best, a report could be made to PADI on the grounds of 'general unprofessional attitude' etc.... as there are some membership standards that dictate a professional approach to the conduct of activities.

As a PADI Member, you agree to the following:
1. Put the safety of diving clients and students as your first priority and responsibility. In doing so, abide by
the requirements and intent of PADI Standards and Procedures in the PADI Instructor Manual, PADI’s
Guide to Teaching, Training Bulletin and other updates while applying your best judgment during the PADI
courses and programs you conduct.

That sounds like it'd cover it... but still, fun diving isn't 'a PADI program'...

2. Although scuba diving is a reasonably safe activity when safety rules are followed, the risk/consequence of
scuba diving can lead to very serious injuries. Be safety minded, safety conscious and practice instructing and
dive mastering professionally.

That section specifically mentions dive mastering 'professionally'.

10. Comply with the intent of the PADI Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding while
teaching and supervising.

That section, specifically related the application of Safe Diving Practices.

14. Respect and reinforce the depth and supervisory restrictions as displayed on restricted PADI certification
cards, such as PADI Scuba Diver and Junior Diver

Depth restrictions only specifically mentioned in relation to 'restricted' PADI certifications..

If you breach the Code of Practice, your PADI Membership is at risk.

Repercussions...

---------- Post Merged at 09:48 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:36 AM ----------

You assume a dive master has been trained through the standards of a certified training agency. But, have you ever seen the c-card of any dive professional at a location like Roatan, Belize, etc.

If represented as a 'Dive Master', that would be a fair assumption - as 'Dive Master' is an industry recognized rating

If represented as a 'Dive Guide', all bets are off - that's a term applied to a job/function, not a rating.

 

[Mike]

So Devon, I know you've been making a case that divers on these dives on the blue hole have personal responsibility as certified divers to be active participants in their own safety, pairing themselves, refusing to dive to depths greater than their training etc... and I understand that fully and fully believe in it.

But as you've stated the facts about PADI, where does that eliminate the professional responsibility of these PADI dive masters to not lead dives as they do? Isn't the real problem in Belize that these dive operations that are advertising themselves as PADI shops are ignoring the basic safety protocols they've agreed to follow? Sure a diver shouldn't follow a divemaster nose to fin without considering the consequences, but isn't the real problem there should be no PADI divemasters creating these situations where divers are put into these situations in the first place. If that's true how can the discussion be anything but that the problem lays with these dive operations and not the divers?

 

[DevonDiver]

But as you've stated the facts about PADI, where does that eliminate the professional responsibility of these PADI dive masters to not lead dives as they do?

Professional responsibility, of negligence thereof, is a civil/legal issue. For that to become relevant, there has to be a legal system that can/will define what those professional responsibilities are.

From what I gather, PADI is purely a training agency. It has training standards, for that reason. It is not a diving agency. It has always avoided taking any responsibility for activities strictly outside the remits of its training programs.

What muddies the water is IRRA. PADI's 'commercial arm'.. the International Resort and Retailer Association. This isn't a training agency, in itself - it deals with resort/center/dive boat memberships - and the allocation of membership grades. IRRA should IMHO be the catalyst for imposing standards on totality of diving activities, applying standards to non-training dives, safety provision, risk assessments, DM responsibilities etc etc.

But it doesn't... it just takes money and gives out "5 Star" status etc, which is valueless (IMHO) to the consumer.

Isn't the real problem in Belize that these dive operations that are advertising themselves as PADI shops are ignoring the basic safety protocols they've agreed to follow?

The PADI dive shop/resort/dive pro 'status' should mean something.... shouldn't it? That's what PADI customers are led to believe - but in reality it is all smoke and mirrors.

Not just PADI is guilty... all agencies, outside of the strict remits of training provision. If a scuba organization puts it's name to a dive pro, or a dive business, it should take some responsibility for that... to the extent of balancing that membership against a robust criteria of standards to ensure quality and safety in all aspects of diving for the customers.

In my mind... the application of such responsibility would be the single biggest catalyst for improvement in the diving industry...

IMHO scuba agencies divorce themselves from that responsibility by placing the emphasis on the individual diver. That is well and good - people should take personal responsibility. Scuba training reflects that - students are taught to do that. Having said that, there is no reason why responsibility shouldn't be shared between individuals and dive pros/operations... both have a part to play..

 

[USdiver1]

Divemaster : PADI or Central America definition? This is purely my experience, and it is an experience that is a couple of decades old. When we referred to individuals as divemasters in Belize and Honduras, they were called so because 1) they knew the reef and environs and 2) they served as guides for tourists who would pay to have someone with local knowledge take them to and show them the reefs. Were they formally trained as PADI or other agency Divemasters? No. Were they formally trained? Most were and many had beed taught to dive in their respective military units (Navy or Coast Guard - which incidentally trains to a much higher standard than PADI IMHO). Some were former commercial or lobster divers, individuals who were very comfortable in the water and confident in their diving skills. As a certified diver would I trust my life with their guidance? Yes, unreservedly. I have and continue to do so.

Outside of receiving a scuba course taught while on vacation in Belize, for providing guided tours to certified divers, the PADI instruction/standards and an accumulation of specialty badges are not what these folks are all about. Do not apply your framework and attempt to pigeon hole a typical Belizean divemaster at a scuba resort into a PADI professional, apples and oranges.

 

[AWMIII]

Divemaster : PADI or Central America definition? This is purely my experience, and it is an experience that is a couple of decades old. When we referred to individuals as divemasters in Belize and Honduras, they were called so because 1) they knew the reef and environs and 2) they served as guides for tourists who would pay to have someone with local knowledge take them to and show them the reefs. Were they formally trained as PADI or other agency Divemasters? No. Were they formally trained? Most were and many had beed taught to dive in their respective military units (Navy or Coast Guard - which incidentally trains to a much higher standard than PADI IMHO). Some were former commercial or lobster divers, individuals who were very comfortable in the water and confident in their diving skills. As a certified diver would I trust my life with their guidance? Yes, unreservedly. I have and continue to do so.

Outside of receiving a scuba course taught while on vacation in Belize, for providing guided tours to certified divers, the PADI instruction/standards and an accumulation of specialty badges are not what these folks are all about. Do not apply your framework and attempt to pigeon hole a typical Belizean divemaster at a scuba resort into a PADI professional, apples and oranges.

Ah... but they seem to have PADI SSI and NAUI stickers and emplems on their boats, brochures, websites, and signs. I am pretty sure that the the BTB would not want the tourist public to hear that they were not operating according to international, industry standards. I am slo sure that PADI, NAUI, ECT would not want to be associated with shops that operate outside of their standards.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Ah... but they seem to have PADI SSI and NAUI stickers and emplems on their boats, brochures, websites, and signs. I am pretty sure that the the BTB would not want the tourist public to hear that they were not operating according to international, industry standards. I am slo sure that PADI, NAUI, ECT would not want to be associated with shops that operate outside of their standards.

Again, the standards that these organizations have in place has been well explained as training standards. PADI (and other agencies) are not the scuba police. They might want to re-evaluate their affiliations should any of their so called 5 Star facilities start killing people all the time but I highly doubt they would change anything simply because a particular shop takes divers beyond recreational limits.

I disagree with the process but I also understand this falls on the shoulders of the Diver and the Shop......not the certifying agency.

 

[DevonDiver]

Ah... but they seem to have PADI SSI and NAUI stickers and emplems on their boats, brochures, websites, and signs.

There are copyright issues if such stores use those logos, branding and 'official advertising' without being authorized members of the associated agencies. One could assume that seeing a PADI logo would mean that the dive center was a member of PADI's 'International Resort and Retailer Association' (the body that grants '5* Dive Center, Dive Resort etc memberships).

However, in some regions... especially those in the developing world, it is also quite likely that copyright infringement occurs. It's important to actually check if a 'branded' dive center is a member, or if they just got slap-happy with a paintbrush...

I am slo sure that PADI, NAUI, ECT would not want to be associated with shops that operate outside of their standards.

PADI IRRA Membership Agreement:

10. I acknowledge that this Agreement does not create an agency relationship between the operation and PADI. Except as otherwise provided in this Membership Agreement, PADI has no control over or involvement with its day-to-day operations and activities and bears no responsibility for the same.

Read into that what you will. PADI, and I guess other agencies, take no responsibility. Nice.. when they put their name to it

PADI Resort and Retailer Membership Standards

18. Ensure that a certified and renewed divemaster, assistant instructor or instructor is present and supervising all snorkeling and recreational scuba diving tours offered by the dive business

Any 'authorized' PADI dive center or resort should employ certified and renewed PADI pros for their recreational diving trips.