W-T-F?? part II

[Cave Diver]

I just ran across this and it reminded me of the discussion on approaching divers doing stupid things, such as diving beyond their skill level. Perhaps more disturbing is instructors that don't demand more of their students, or themselves.

Should we condone sacrificial caves? Or support the harder stance and demand more? Or is there just nothing that can be done against the Good Ole' Boy Network?

During my apprentice course, we crossed paths with this instructor while he allowed students to sit on the bottom and tie in a jump spool to the crossover tunnel. It's out of control. Scary part is, once again, LOTS of people recommend him on TDS/CDF as an instructor.

We could either make a huge push to save tourist caves by increasing training standards (lots of work), or take the route most of us take and just don't talk about lots of sites to avoid them getting beat to snot (much easier!). That's why you don't see me getting all riled up when someone complains about a mark in the clay around the Hillier tunnel in Ginnie...it's Ginnie, these caves aren't realistic to protect.

We encountered them at Peacock and Madison Blue. Peacock's obviously a training cave ... as evidenced by the many "skid marks" you see all over the place. Madison Blue's just too damn pretty to have that sort of thing happening to ... instructors probably shouldn't be doing training dives there ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I gotta say, I've never been a fan of the idea of "sacrificial caves." My class stressed conservation and proper skills and I guess I wrongly assumed that others do as well. I'm a bit saddened by the fact that the community accepts this as the "easier" route, rather than insisting people be held to higher standards.

 

[The Chairman]

I don't like the idea of sacrificial caves, but there are a couple that are just beat to death, with Peacock and Ginnie being obvious examples. The last two times (out of three) I was at Madison Blue, people complained of being hit with falling rock. Well duh! If you hit the ceiling enough, something's going to give.

Part of this has to do with using the appropriate tool for the job. Back mount in Madison is doable, but at a price to the cave. Most of that cave should be done side mount.

 

[lamont]

well, i don't know how you're going to do lights out exits in a cave 1 / intro course without some cave sacrifices being made... lost line drills as well...

if we're talking about courses that leave nothing but a trail of destruction in the cave for days that's probably not very cool...

 

[karstdvr]

I don't like the idea of sacrificial caves, but there are a couple that are just beat to death, with Peacock

These are comments that you really don't want to make. This is how caves get closed down,or so limited,that it might as well be closed.

 

[Cave Diver]

Part of this has to do with using the appropriate tool for the job. Back mount in Madison is doable, but at a price to the cave. Most of that cave should be done side mount.

That could be one piece of the puzzle, but don't you think it should start with having the proper skills first? Someone with poor skills in sidemount just manages to cause damage further into the system than someone in backmount can get.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I heard about the sacrificial cave thing from my instructor when I was first trained, Devil's being named as one of them. Personally, I don't believe we need to have sacrificial caves. If a student doesn't have enough buoyancy control to go into a cave, that student shouldn't be brought into the cave. I've been fortunate enough to have students with pretty good buoyancy control so far. But we spend over an hour in shallow open water working on skills in cavern class. By the time we're done with that, buoyancy control in the cavern at 30-40 ffw is pretty easy. If someone believes there should be sacrificial caves, maybe they should head over to Vortex to use the manmade caves for training...

 

[karstdvr]

well, i don't know how you're going to do lights out exits in a cave 1 / intro course without some cave sacrifices being made... lost line drills as well...

Damage of a passage for the purpose of training is unacceptable in the eyes of the owner,especially when the owner is the state. A number of years ago there was a borrow pit that was offered for training that would absord the damage that occurs with lights out,air share etc,but no cave is damaged. Unfortunately it was never taken.

 

[Dive-aholic]

well, i don't know how you're going to do lights out exits in a cave 1 / intro course without some cave sacrifices being made... lost line drills as well...

if we're talking about courses that leave nothing but a trail of destruction in the cave for days that's probably not very cool...

It's possible to do a lights out exit without destroying the cave. All it takes is choosing where you do these drills carefully. If you choose passage where the line is in the middle (from top to bottom), contact with the cave will be minimal to none. Lost line drills work the same way. Choose a location to do these where contact with the cave will result in no evidence of anyone being there. I bet you can't figure out where I do my lost line drills just by going past the area.

 

[Cave Diver]

I heard about the sacrificial cave thing from my instructor when I was first trained, Devil's being named as one of them. Personally, I don't believe we need to have sacrificial caves. If a student doesn't have enough buoyancy control to go into a cave, that student shouldn't be brought into the cave. I've been fortunate enough to have students with pretty good buoyancy control so far. But we spend over an hour in shallow open water working on skills in cavern class. By the time we're done with that, buoyancy control in the cavern at 30-40 ffw is pretty easy. If someone believes there should be sacrificial caves, maybe they should head over to Vortex to use the manmade caves for training...

That was pretty much the mentality from my instructor too Rob. We didn't move into overhead until I demonstrated proficiency enough to be there. Debriefs always included awareness of what was happening, fin tips dropping, stirring up silt, placing my hands somewhere, etc. I recall a lot of discussion on conservationism and awareness for the environment. It doesn't seem like this is stressed as much now though?

 

[Dive-aholic]

That was pretty much the mentality from my instructor too Rob. We didn't move into overhead until I demonstrated proficiency enough to be there. Debriefs always included awareness of what was happening, fin tips dropping, stirring up silt, placing my hands somewhere, etc. I recall a lot of discussion on conservationism and awareness for the environment. It doesn't seem like this is stressed as much now though?

One thing my students learn to fear is the slap. I am constantly slapping hands when I see them fanning and knees when I see them dropping. It usually only happens a couple of times before they catch themselves doing it before I get a chance to slap them.