Question Visual Inspection Expiration Date

[Divin'Papaw]

I wrote a bunch of very cogent, eloquent points to rebutt everybody arguing here. Then realized it had nothing to do with the question from a guy or gal that needed tanks on hand for use. Go ahead and get em filled? Or gamble on not having them filled when he needed em. Have em inspected now and be assured of having them available when you need em.

But to sum up everything else:
Average cost of a visual inspection: $13.73**. Cost of getting shorted a month: $1.14 or 9.5 cents per month over a 12 month period.

Not worth arguing about.

NOBODY EVER PAYS FOR 12 MONTHS OF VIP. Or 11 months. Or 6: you pay $13.73 for a single service, completed in less than half an hour in most cases. There's nothing else owed to the tank owner. Pass/fail. That's it.

Most shops will honor it for a period not to exceed 12 months. Not "good for 12 months."

It's arbitrary. Don't like "losing" $1.14 a year that you never bought or paid for?? Go spend a few thousand bucks on a compressor and fill your own. Pretty sure the LDS wouldn't give a rip to lose that bit of business.



**Queried 13 local dive shops in both Houston and Dallas areas as to what they charge for (1) VIP (universally included fill - avg $23.61) and (2) air fills (avg $9.88). Averaged each and subtracted avg air fill from avg VIP service (which includes air fill).

Valid points. In practice, rather than in theory, I use my tanks monthly on average. As VIP approaches I fill them the month before, dive them the month VIP expires, then have them VIPed & filled the month they are due. So the question is never an issue for me. Funny thing though. I have had the shop I use say ‘You know, these aren’t due for VIP until the end of the month. You sure you want them VIPed?’

 

[Divin'Papaw]

The case for the rules and requirements for VCI were established decades ago, if you want "data," check with the experts. Better yet, take a VCI course by PSI and ask them your questions. Don't expect them to feed you the information for free. Take the course and decide for yourself.

Secret data you have to pay to get. That’s special.

I have taken a VCI course but not with PSI. I don’t care for their arrogance.

 

[BoltSnap]

Secret data you have to pay to get. That’s special.

"Secret"??? They tell you everything you want/need to know and more in their courses. They even answer your questions and help you with information and expert advice when you have questions about issues you don't know how to handle.

I have taken a VCI course but not with PSI. I don’t care for their arrogance.

I have NEVER felt any arogance from PSI since I took their training in the 80's and through the continuing education programs since then. Nothing but the most helpful and professional attitude, help and advice.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

This is hilarious. I know of shops that will tout "you need a VIP or else" and then turn around and hand out VIP stickers to their patrons with enough frequent flyer miles (read spend a-f-ton in the shop).

If it was about safety, it would be done every time for every tank. Ironically, the one major way for moisture to get into a tank is if the final filter has failed... which is maintained by the shop requiring $$ for said VIP.

100% about safety would be filling in a blast chamber, anything else is just a money grab. That's the only way... a shop can't guarantee what happens when it leaves, let alone if the sticker is even real... but you can't charge for a blast chamber like you can a yearly VIP...cough, cough... scuba tax.

I know that will rub people the wrong way, but it's Friday.. time to stir some stuff for the weekend!!!! Cheers everyone!

 

[Still Kicking]

the one major way for moisture to get into a tank is if the final filter has failed... which is maintained by the shop requiring $$ for said VIP.

In my area, the worst culprit for wet fills are dive boats, where the crew are filling many tanks in a hurry and the compressors generally don't have auto drains and/or adequate filtration.

On top of that, the majority of tanks that I have rejected on visual inspection have been due to external rust rather than internal rust. Painted steel tanks with old-style rubber boots that didn't drain would sometimes result in rust that would come off in big flakes.

 

[OMyMyOHellYes]

If it was about safety, it would be done every time for every tank. Ironically, the one major way for moisture to get into a tank is if the final filter has failed... which is maintained by the shop requiring $$ for said VIP.

100% about safety would be filling in a blast chamber, anything else is just a money grab. That's the only way... a shop can't guarantee what happens when it leaves, let alone if the sticker is even real... but you can't charge for a blast chamber like you can a yearly VIP...cough, cough... scuba tax.

"If it was about safety, it would be done every time for every tank," now that is just a load of super-rich organic fertilizer spewed out of the distal end of the bovine alimentary tract.

Want 100% safety? Don't ever go diving. Stay in bed. Wait. Even that has risks.

In fairness though, to just throw out "It's for the children!" I mean "It's for safety!" is often used as an emotional appeal when they can't articulate facts and reason. So, to articulate it better: "it's about mitigating risk and it's the best we got, when consistently applied, at a token cost and what most literature and practice says is prudent so that's what we're going with."

Somebody do not like? Then I point them thusly:
Welcome to August Industries - August Industries Inc.

(not the only one, just the one I've done binness with)

For a VIP I expect somebody knowledgeable to take a look just to see if anything went bad during the set time frame since the last looky look. Done at an arbitrary time interval. A means of mitigating risk to a more acceptable level.

That 737 I bought a seat on to RTB next month, I trust United be doin "C" checks on them 73s on an arbitrary schedule (probably 4,000-6,000 hours) and fly them until the next check. Well, except for the "A" check and "B" check items. I'm good with that approach. I suppose some might argue it's a waste of time that could be better spent with butts in seats in the air.

It's just a risk mitigation measure that most attornies would argue was prudent based on documented procedures and practice. And the plaintiffs' attorney would argue that would likely have prevented injury to their client had the shop held to that standard. And a bunch of other stuff.

(What prominent SB member was it whose valve got stopped up with Al2O3 flakes in, IIRC, Mexico a few months back that should been caught by most recent VIP?)

So no, it's not a money grab. Not at $13.73 for an inspection (as determined yesterday). If somebody wanted to amortize that for 11-12 months, it comes to 3.5-4.0 cents a day. I walk past 3-4 pennies at 7-11 or Quik-Trip every day or so.

Lake time any minute now!

Ain't nothing finer than an ice-cold Shiner!

 

[rob.mwpropane]

"If it was about safety, it would be done every time for every tank," now that is just a load of super-rich organic fertilizer spewed out of the distal end of the bovine alimentary tract.

Lol!

Want 100% safety? Don't ever go diving. Stay in bed. Wait. Even that has risks.

Also funny, I am fine with the risks of maintaining a compressor and filters and tanks.

In fairness though, to just throw out "It's for the children!" I mean "It's for safety!" is often used as an emotional appeal when they can't articulate facts and reason. So, to articulate it better: "it's about mitigating risk and it's the best we got, when consistently applied, at a token cost and what most literature and practice says is prudent so that's what we're going with."

Mitigating, sure, but for 99.9% of the VIP's done it's a money grab. As is illustrated by some shops handing out stickers without the VIP (that I've seen with my own eyes). Maybe there was a time when it made more sense, but with the advent of better filtration and a better understanding, better protocols it's obsolete.

Somebody do not like? Then I point them thusly:
Welcome to August Industries - August Industries Inc.

(not the only one, just the one I've done binness with)

I don't understand this? I use (and like) August. Great people.

For a VIP I expect somebody knowledgeable to take a look just to see if anything went bad during the set time frame since the last looky look. Done at an arbitrary time interval. A means of mitigating risk to a more acceptable level.

You're still only getting whatever person they throw at you. Sure "somebody" is certified for VIP's at the shop... but is that the person doing it? Probably not... it's like filling tanks, usually the low man on the totem pole.

That 737 I bought a seat on to RTB next month, I trust United be doin "C" checks on them 73s on an arbitrary schedule (probably 4,000-6,000 hours) and fly them until the next check. Well, except for the "A" check and "B" check items. I'm good with that approach. I suppose some might argue it's a waste of time that could be better spent with butts in seats in the air.

The difference is the person doing the checks is certified and he / she is double checked by someone who is certified who is overseen by someone who is certified... hard to compare that to the kid in the back of the shop who someone showed how to do a VIP once.

It's just a risk mitigation measure that most attornies would argue was prudent based on documented procedures and practice. And the plaintiffs' attorney would argue that would likely have prevented injury to their client had the shop held to that standard. And a bunch of other stuff.

PADI still has instructors having everyone wear snorkels I am assuming for some type of mitigation measure... doesn't mean it's a great practice.

(What prominent SB member was it whose valve got stopped up with Al2O3 flakes in, IIRC, Mexico a few months back that should been caught by most recent VIP?)

Didn't see that, would be interested to though.

So no, it's not a money grab. Not at $13.73 for an inspection (as determined yesterday). If somebody wanted to amortize that for 11-12 months, it comes to 3.5-4.0 cents a day. I walk past 3-4 pennies at 7-11 or Quik-Trip every day or so.

@ $13.73 is not that bad, actually reasonable. Anywhere around here is $25 on up. Buddy just had his ONE tank cleaned.... $106, I **** you not. (O2 cleaned, but that's highway robbery). My last VIP+ fill (3 years ago) was in the neighborhood of $27.. also highway robbery. If the most used place in the US (Amigo's) can go ahead and let people fill their own tanks without incident... don't you think that's enough to say maybe this practice is obsolete?

If you're going to have a sh!t compressor or sh!t maintenance on compressors / filters, then maybe this still makes sense... but that's not the responsibility of the owner of the tank (or at least shouldn't be via a scuba tax). And honestly we're past that (or at least should be). Try being a shop that gives crappy fills with moisture in the tank... see how long that lasts and how fast word spreads!

Lake time any minute now!

Ain't nothing finer than an ice-cold Shiner!

Have fun!... always enjoy different perspectives (honestly!)!

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Mitigating, sure, but for 99.9% of the VIP's done it's a money grab. As is illustrated by some shops handing out stickers without the VIP (that I've seen with my own eyes). Maybe there was a time when it made more sense, but with the advent of better filtration and a better understanding, better protocols it's obsolete.

So here's the thing. Locally $25 and up is charged. The person doing the VIP has no training from PSI-PCI or TDI. They are just told "look for rust" or "look for dings" and require a cylinder clean/tumble when they really don't understand at what point that is needed. In no way are they going to look how deep any pock marks are to see if they are deep enough that a tumble is recommended.

I've taken cylinders from one shop to another that doesn't have shop monkeys working (but is more expensive) and the VIP passed. I do have the training and tools, but I have let my certification expire. But I do inspect myself and clean myself per TDI recommendations.

 

[OMyMyOHellYes]

I do inspect myself and clean myself per TDI recommendations.

Are you using Simple Green Crystal? Dawn Dishwashing liquid? How do you maintain the O2 clean status?

 

[Still Kicking]

I have let my certification expire.

If you were trained by PSI back when they offered lifetime certifications, you are still qualified. Apparently, lifetime certifications cannot be subsequently changed to expiring certifications. This info came from DOT, for what it's worth.