VIP sticker/ID #'s

[Beau640]

Question:

I don't know anything about visual inspections on tanks/how they are done and the stickers certifying the tanks have been inspected. I own a few tanks that have been VIP'd by different shops. I noticed some of the stickers on the tanks have a # on them (I'm assuming some kind of inspector # or something) and others don't at all. Should they all have an ID # on the VIP sticker? Are some places not actually certified to VIP and they are just slapping a custom sticker on the tank?

Beau

 

[Scuba Scott]

One "brand" of certification provides ID numbers. The others don't. If you are an independent inspector not working for a shop the ID number is a way to trace who did the inspection using a non personalized sticker. Shops may have more than one trained inspector but rather than put the liability on the individual doing the inspection they personalize the sticker with the shop name and now the shop is responsible for the inspection.

Yes, some will say there is no law requiring an annual inspection but once you slap a sticker on something saying you inspected it, you are liable, even if it isn't required by law.

No, your shop stickers are valid.

 

[tbone1004]

so VIP is an industry thing similar to regulator certifications. There is no official body that governs VIP's. PSI-PCI is the closest thing to a governing body for VIP but there is no actual requirement for an annual VIP. The stickers with the inspector # on them are likely from PSI-PCI where there is recertification requirements etc.

TDI has their own which doesn't have a # on there, and dive shops can just train people to do their own VIP's and that's a lot of what you see with the shop brand stickers. No shop is required to accept any VIP sticker that they don't want to accept, especially stickers claiming O2-clean, though PSI-PCI is pretty much universally accepted.

Most in the tech diving circles will VIP their own, though often not on a yearly basis, and it is quite uncommon in cave country to actually ever see a VIP sticker, especially on sidemount bottles. On stages/deco bottles you may see them on the bottom of the AL80 in the small recess, and in doubles you may see them in the middle of the doubles, but not always, and most shops down there don't look for it.

 

[2airishuman]

Question:

I don't know anything about visual inspections on tanks/how they are done and the stickers certifying the tanks have been inspected.

There is some variation in exactly how much inspection is performed. The minimum would be: removing the valve, looking inside with a light, observing that the inside of the cylinder isn't a complete disaster, observing that the outside of the cylinder doesn't have anything obviously wrong with it, and putting a sticker on.

A more thorough inspection would involve removal of the boot and any stickers to better assess the exterior condition, using an inspection mirror to see the inside of the tank shoulder, and perhaps using some sort of magnification to look for cracks in the neck threads.

When there is some actual corrosion present, most shops will measure the depth and length of any pits.

Typically the inspection results are recorded in a logbook. A few places might keep photos on file.

I own a few tanks that have been VIP'd by different shops. I noticed some of the stickers on the tanks have a # on them (I'm assuming some kind of inspector # or something) and others don't at all. Should they all have an ID # on the VIP sticker?

Typically the shop name is preprinted, and the logbook in the shop is signed by whoever did the inspection. Typically this individual doesn't have any sort of ID # or formal training, although some do.

Some shops, and some individuals who aren't affiliated with a shop, are certified by PSI/PCI and use their stickers. Those stickers will have an inspector number hand-written in. There are some other certifying agencies out there that work the same way.

Are some places not actually certified to VIP and they are just slapping a custom sticker on the tank?

VIP has always been an industry program and, from the beginning, has mainly been a look inside the tank to see if something really bad has happened since the last hydro (which itself includes a thorough visual inspection). Nobody has to be "certified" to perform a VIP. There has been a trend toward more thorough inspections at VIP, spearheaded by PSI/PCI. There is very little evidence to suggest that doing so makes diving any safer.

 

[tbone1004]

@2airishuman also important is to understand WHY the VIP programs started in the first place as they are not conducted on industrial cylinders. The main reason for VIP initially was wet fills into the steel tanks. People wouldn't blow the valves off properly and water would get inside the cylinders. Salt water is particularly nasty in high pressure environments with steel. This is actually why you see some lined LP72's. With proper fill procedures there isn't much use in the VIP at all, but you can't always control that.

 

[Lake Hickory Scuba]

so VIP is an industry thing similar to regulator certifications. There is no official body that governs VIP's. PSI-PCI is the closest thing to a governing body for VIP but there is no actual requirement for an annual VIP. The stickers with the inspector # on them are likely from PSI-PCI where there is recertification requirements etc.

TDI has their own which doesn't have a # on there, and dive shops can just train people to do their own VIP's and that's a lot of what you see with the shop brand stickers. No shop is required to accept any VIP sticker that they don't want to accept, especially stickers claiming O2-clean, though PSI-PCI is pretty much universally accepted.

Most in the tech diving circles will VIP their own, though often not on a yearly basis, and it is quite uncommon in cave country to actually ever see a VIP sticker, especially on sidemount bottles. On stages/deco bottles you may see them on the bottom of the AL80 in the small recess, and in doubles you may see them in the middle of the doubles, but not always, and most shops down there don't look for it.

I will second tbone1004, as there is not a single governing agency that over see's the inspection process, with the exception of CTC and USDOT (here in the US), but only in regards to transportation of filled cylinders. As a PSI/PCI inspector, and a dive shop owner, I will also agree that PSI/PCI is pretty well excepted all over, and on a very few occasions have I ever had my personal shop VIP stickers questioned. Agencies like TDI and PDIC that teach you how to do a visual inspection are just as useful as PSI/PCI's but at the end of the day what gets excepted in a civil case in court may be a different story. I have had this argument multiple times with Firefighters (I am a firefighter as well as a goof off dive instructor) about NFPA standards not being law, but accepted by the courts as concrete rules to follow. In the very unlikelihood event a tank was to fail and injure or kill someone, what side of the fence do you think the ball would fall on, when trying to prove to a 12 member jury why your training was sufficient enough to VIP a cylinder. There is a lot of trust that is implied when filling a cylinder. Just because it is in Hydro and VIP'ed, does not mean that the cylinder is still safe to fill. The fill operator has no clue what you did to the cylinder prior to you bringing it into be filled. Cylinders are tougher than people think and can take a beating, work for a dive shop during the busy months and you will understand what I mean. Trust also goes the other way as well. Shops in general hold a very high level of responsibility and liability by servicing tanks and returning them back to the customer. With this being said, I for one am glad I have the documents to prove I am trained to do what I do (VIP tanks). If you ever question the legitimacy of your local dive shop, you can always ask to see proof of certification before you get a service done by them.

Here is some videos we just recently made about VIP and filling tanks. Hopefully this will give you a better idea of what actually happens when you bring your tank in to be serviced.

Visual Inspection of a Scuba Cylinder


Filling a 6351 Cylinder

 

[redacted]

Yes, some will say there is no law requiring an annual inspection but once you slap a sticker on something saying you inspected it, you are liable, even if it isn't required by law.
.

How does that liability work when the inspection was week, months, up to a year prior and the shop or inspector loses control of the tank when it goes out the door?

 

[guruboy]

Bell tone test on a steel cylinder? That's neat.

The fact that you would fail a tank that just came back from hydro because of a subjectively measure audible noise during a VIP? Interesting...

Also, can dive shops even legally condemn scuba tanks?

 

[Lake Hickory Scuba]

How does that liability work when the inspection was week, months, up to a year prior and the shop or inspector loses control of the tank when it goes out the door?

My argument in court would go as follows. "At the time I returned the tank back to the customer, with a complete fill and visual inspection, I am certifying that this tank is in good working order, and shall remain so only until the customer takes back custody of the cylinder and leaves my property. It is the responsibility of the customer to maintain the integrity of this cylinder until he returns for any additional fills or services from this point in time." Now as an expert witness in court, at least that is what attorneys have called me here in our county, and believe me I have been called worse, I will tell you that between a jury trial (civil) and a judge trial (civil), the judge will be more likely to be on your side, than 12 people who have no clue anything about Scuba would ever be. In North Carolina, civil cases with lawsuits less than $2,500.00 are usually only non jury trials and a judge makes the final verdicts. With juries, I have always used this terminology, You Have To Prove To 12 Ignorant People, What You Did Was Correct And What The Other Guy Did Was Wrong. Disclaimer: There is a difference between being STUPID and being Ignorant, feel free to look up the definitions (I always get a weird look from people, when I call them ignorant in open court). Now with all this being said, its still a gamble. Who remembers the guy who ordered hot coffee from Mcdonalds and ended up spilling it on himself. Since Mcdonalds did not have "BECAREFUL, COFFEE IS HOT," written on the outside of the cup, he won a law suit for several millions of dollars against them. In a nut shell he manipulated the system legally and won. Sometimes playing stupid pays off.

Now as far as liability, our customers sign a waiver before we do any service to any scuba related equipment, giving us the authority to service and even condemn equipment, and furthermore, sign an agreement that they accept all responsibility after leaving our property with their cylinder. No signature, no service, simple as that. Do we have people who complain, absolutely. Do we have people who leave with out a service, absolutely. Do we have people who play nice, sign the forms, get a service, accept the fact that they are responsible for their own safety, pay for the service and fill, go dive, enjoy life, and then become repeat customers, absolutely. To each his own.

 

[Lake Hickory Scuba]

Bell tone test on a steel cylinder? That's neat.

The fact that you would fail a tank that just came back from hydro because of a subjectively measure audible noise during a VIP? Interesting...

Don't believe I have ever once failed a tank because of the Bell Tone Test. Just simply showing people the process of VIPing a cylinder. But you do bring up an interesting topic. I wonder how many Inspectors fail for this criteria. Just for the record, all tanks that we have failed, were rejected and another visual inspector has repeated the VIP behind the first before we condemned it. Thank You for pointing this out.