VIP on AL cylinders = stupid $$$ game

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This is in response to Uncle Eddie,

As an instructor, you, I'm sure, have worked in a dive shop before. How you can say that visual inspections are a rip off is beyond me. I'll say it again, tanks, like the rest of your gear, is life support equipment and should be treated as such.
 
sandersondiver:
This is in response to Uncle Eddie,

As an instructor, you, I'm sure, have worked in a dive shop before. How you can say that visual inspections are a rip off is beyond me. I'll say it again, tanks, like the rest of your gear, is life support equipment and should be treated as such.
Thank you sandersondiver.

The two issues here are:

1. The dive shops are ripping us off (they are all so rich, it is just greed)

2. Is a visual inspection really needed?

The first is silly, as dive shops are going out of business left and right.

The second would be on no value, if every tank was filled at the same place, with known quality air. It is the vary nature of diving that they travel around and get filled by all sorts of places.

And it only takes one "mistake" to kill someone.

The fact that you can buy your own compressor and fill the tank with whatever you want, means that one should inspect tanks..
 
Puffer Fish:
Thank you sandersondiver.

The two issues here are:

1. The dive shops are ripping us off (they are all so rich, it is just greed)

2. Is a visual inspection really needed?

The first is silly, as dive shops are going out of business left and right.

The second would be on no value, if every tank was filled at the same place, with known quality air. It is the vary nature of diving that they travel around and get filled by all sorts of places.

And it only takes one "mistake" to kill someone.

The fact that you can buy your own compressor and fill the tank with whatever you want, means that one should inspect tanks..

The fact that the dive shops are going out of business is even more reason they would want to get $20 per customer's tank per year. Plus if they fail it, a certain percentage will buy a new one right there. The reason they are going out of business is because most of them are stubborn and refuse to change their business model in light of their more educated customers (this thread is a perfect example of information being passed along via internet that wasn't available back in the heyday of dive shops), but that's another thread/argument all together.

As for number two, all I can do is just repeat my argument over again. The CGA (who is the leading authority in the world on everything compressed gas, including storage, and is recognized by the laws of the United States and many other countries as such) says that 5 years is fine. Just because the SCUBA industry says it should be one year doesn't mean it NEEDS to be one year!

The only rebuttal to the CGA's recommendation that I've had is "it's life support equipment" and therefore needs to be inspected more often. That's just simply an emotional based response and is not based on any research or evaluation of real risks... things the CGA do as a professional organization. Again, I ask... how many of you have your brake lines in your car torn apart and inspected for cracks every year? How many of you have your airbag systems evaluated ever year?

To put the whole thing into perspective, let's look at a snapshot of how absolutely paranoid the diving community is regarding cylinders. We'll do this using the whole 6351 alloy issue because it has been scientifically studied for years and the true dangers of it are well understood.

REAL SITUATION: Some cylinders made with the AL-6351 alloy exhibit sustained load cracking in the neck area. These cylinders were made prior to 1990 by various manufacturers. As far as SCUBA goes I believe the majority of them were made by Luxfer which stopped using 6351 in June 1988. CGA says that these cracks take many years to develop, and "the 3-year periodic qualification period for composite and 5 year qualification period for all metal 6351 aluminum alloy cylinders provides ample opportunity to discover neck cracks before they lead to leaks." (Compressed Gas Association Pamphlet C 6.1, pg. 16, 2002) It then notes that the SCUBA industry has chosen to inspect all cylinders yearly regardless of material, manufacturer, or production date. Then it says that these inspection intervals are not required.

DIVE INDUSTRY'S PARANOID INTERPRETATION OF REAL SITUATION: Oh my god, we're all going to die if we fill a cylinder older than 15 years old! I don't care about you or your cylinder, or the fact that my job is to put air in cylinders in the first place. Nor do I care that we visually inspect cylinders FIVE TIMES AS OFTEN AS WE NEED TO. I'm going with my emotions and refuse everything because I want to come home to my wife and kids, even if there is absolutely no evidence to support my viewpoint or fears. I had to argue with one guy to get him to fill a Catalina cylinder (which never even used 6351 at any time), that was hydroed and visualed a month prior to this! And it wasn't even 15 years old. It just "looked like it was 15 years old." :confused:
 
sandersondiver:
This is in response to Uncle Eddie,

As an instructor, you, I'm sure, have worked in a dive shop before. How you can say that visual inspections are a rip off is beyond me. I'll say it again, tanks, like the rest of your gear, is life support equipment and should be treated as such.

Who is Uncle Eddie? If you meant Rick, then you need to reread his post. The emoticons are there to indicate he is just kidding.
 
Good grief. I just inspected a tank with serious stress fractures in the threads. It was only a matter of time AND it was fresh outta hydro.
 
Puffer Fish:
The second would be on no value, if every tank was filled at the same place, with known quality air. It is the vary nature of diving that they travel around and get filled by all sorts of places.

And it only takes one "mistake" to kill someone.
..


If it only takes one mistake to kill someone, what good is a once a year inspection?
 
Al Mialkovsky:
Good grief. I just inspected a tank with serious stress fractures in the threads. It was only a matter of time AND it was fresh outta hydro.

The stress fractures were probably created during the hydro.
 
anakin:
OUCH! Manufacturers of Scuba tanks send out there tanks with Valid VIPs on them. So you shouldnt have paid for anything.

The same shop used to mount the masks on a peg board on the wall. Then charge you extra for the box. LOL
 
At least with a once a year inspection the insides get cleaned out. For me that means an O2 cleaning which isn't a bad thing to do.

Honestly, tanks get crud in them in the course of a years diving multiple locations. I've seen a couple sub par shops put air in tanks I wouldn't put in my tires, yet you seem to think it's fine to let it slide.

Fine, let your tanks slide. For me I think the cleaning I get once a year is a good thing, and as I've posted before they have found minor issues they took care of during the visual.

If you feel you never have a possiblity of bad air, i.e. air with oil of some sort in it, then don't get your visual and fill your own. For me diving Nitrox and PP fills it's a good idea to get the tanks cleaned and inspected every so often.
 
PhilEllis:
I promise you that at my shop, we follow a very well defined, prescribed inspection process for cylinder inspection. We aren't trying to pull anything over anyones eyes, we are simply trying to make sure that the cylinders you breathe are clean and ready for good service. We spend about 15 minutes in an inspection and our price of $10 is fair. If the cylinder is 6361 alloy, we add the Visual Plus inspection at no charge. The liability issues are serious, but they are the least of the problems. We just want the clean air we pump to go into a clean cylinder, without odors and without contaminants. Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

I am sure you run an honest business Phil and mean no disrespect, but many divers like myself have run into bad shops who actually try to deceive people. I want my cylinder clean as well as the air that put into it, as does every other diver. But as you admit the standards out in the field vary. How am I to know what the shop does when they say drop it off the cylinder and pick it up on another day? I never knew that hydros are done at fire extingusher companies not at the shop. It is also impossible for me to judge the cleaness of the air they pump into my tanks. I have to rely on the standards of the industry which seem to vary quite a bit. I want the check done correctly because I am also standing in the shop when they fill it and can get killed too. So I am at the same risk as the "tank monkey".
 

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