VIP on AL cylinders = stupid $$$ game

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<<RANT ON>>
Let's try a little perspective here.
First of all, those who are convinced the LDS is there to rip 'em off aren't going to be convinced of the necessity of VIPs, annual or bi-annual manufacturer recommended servicing, corrosion control, instructor good will, technician competence or anything else good about the retail side of the industry. For them the LDS exists to extract as much money for as little service as possible, with the least effort and with disdain for the customer's well being.
So why bother trying to convince 'em? It's a waste of time. Just smile and take their money, or, if they whine too much, send 'em on down the road or to the internet service shop in the sky. Whatever you do, don't devalue your time or skill in an attempt to appease them; they'll just want more and more for less and less until you're out of business.
As for me, there are reasonable service and NDI precautions to take with equipment that can either fail explosively topside, or with life threatening results to the user underwater. I am going to personally ensure that my equipment is inspected on a reguar basis and properly serviced. Because I have a bunch of tanks I've taken the time to learn how to conduct a competent inspection myself, and I do my own. I also service my own regs and other equipment - because I'm cheap. But I make sure the service and the inspections are done - on time and in spec. Sometimes I don't have time to do it all myself and I pay someone else to do it. I don't expect to find any defects of consequence during any of these inspections and service cycles, because I take good care of my gear, but I do not skip them because of it. When I have someone else do the work I pay them for a good job and I don't expect a cut rate.
Is all this inspecting and servicing necessary? Probably not. When I was young and immortal I used the same Conshelf for over two decades before the exhaust valve finally disintegrated to the point I was getting more water than air and decided it was time for service, but during those two decades I did inspect it regularly, make sure it was cared for well and free of corrosion. Now that reg gets an annual, 'cause I've gotten old and mortal.
The inspection cycles we use today are there to catch the lowest common denominator, to prevent that one in 10,000 chance that skipping it will result in serious injury or death, so the odds are pretty good that you can double or triple or quadruple the interval and never have a problem. Probably.
But, even though it's probably perfectly safe, I ain't filling your tank without a current hydro and VIP, and even though it's definitely safe, I don't expect anyone else to fill mine without a current hydro and VIP.
In addition to that, I ain't teaching you or your children or your friends to dive in equipment out of date on its manufacturer's recommended service and I won't take a class from an instructor that accepts the use of equipment not in service.
I don't care where you get the work done, as long as it's done. VIPing tanks and servicing regs and BCs ain't "rocket science" so it's no big deal to seek out and get the training needed to take care of it yourself if you don't feel the LDS is giving you your money's worth, so don't whine about it. Buy the training and the tools and do it yourself. And document it. That's fine with me.
What isn't fine with me is "it's a rip off so I didn't have it done."
<<RANT OFF>>
Y'all have fun now, y'hear! :D
Rick
 
Dive-aholic:
The stress fractures were probably created during the hydro.
No, the stress fractures were probably not created during the hydro, but grew over a very long time. I recommend this page as a primer on sustained load cracking.
Rick
 
My bad, wrong choice of verbage. They were probably made evident during the hydro.
 
First off, please forgive me because I haven't figured out how to copy and paste previous replies, so bear with me. Crazy Fingers: brake lines and air bags, while they may have an innate danger, are not working under hight pressure, breathing in water or any other contaminat from a cylinder poses an immediate and inherent danger. Your analogy is inapplicable to this situation.
AMS511: Hydrostatic testing is usually done offsite due to the exorbitant cost of actually having a hydrostatic testing facility on premises.
Minimal expenses accrue for the patron when testing is only required every 5 years. And when the dive shop doesn't have to invest in hardware and training, this actually saves you, the consumer, money. The question is, can and will the cylinder perform and not have a catostrophic failure after intermittent or heavy use. ARE YOU WILLING TO BET A LOVED ONES LIFE OR YOUR LIFE ON IT?
 
Crazy Fingers:
As for number two, all I can do is just repeat my argument over again. The CGA (who is the leading authority in the world on everything compressed gas, including storage, and is recognized by the laws of the United States and many other countries as such) says that 5 years is fine. Just because the SCUBA industry says it should be one year doesn't mean it NEEDS to be one year!

The scuba industry says it should be one year because, unlike most compressed gas tanks, scuba tanks are used in salt water. They are right.

Aluminum tanks can corrode very badly if salt gets inside - enough to be condemned within the space of a year. I've killed two tanks like this in the past year - if the corrosion had been allowed to continue for five years, these tanks would have been very likely to rupture. There are other issues as well, but that's the most obvious one. You can quote your CGA pamphlet all you want but it really doesn't matter; those guidelines are meant for dry tanks and do not take into consideration the type of abuse that we give scuba tanks.

The whole "life support" argument has been hashed to death and is, to be honest, irrelevant. Tanks tend to explode while being filled; the people in danger from tank failures are dive shop employees, not divers. You can understand, then, why dive shops want your tanks to be in good condition.

You are partly right, though. Some dive shops are trying to rip you off! Inspecting a tank properly (eddy current included) takes 15-20 minutes at most unless there's something wrong with it. A shop that charges $20 for a vip is asking $80 per hour in labour for a rather simple job. That's just plain gouging and there's no need to put up with it.
 
rgbmatt:
The scuba industry says it should be one year because, unlike most compressed gas tanks, scuba tanks are used in salt water. They are right.
Also, Scuba tanks are handled in ways no other compressed gas cylinder sees. The only other cylinders that come close are SCBA.
rgbmatt:
You are partly right, though. Some dive shops are trying to rip you off! Inspecting a tank properly (eddy current included) takes 15-20 minutes at most unless there's something wrong with it. A shop that charges $20 for a vip is asking $80 per hour in labour for a rather simple job. That's just plain gouging and there's no need to put up with it.
While I don't take issue with the $80 is too much, I do take issue with your 15-20 minutes, at least in most cases. That timing would be about right if you had a "VIP shop." But most shops do VIPs pretty much "on demand," either one at the time or at most a handful at a time, which increases the overhead time considerably. And don't forget that the time checking the tank in and out ain't free either. And the light bill.
Also, if you aren't making a payroll you probably have only a partial idea of how much labor costs. After paying all government mandated taxes and "benefits" and "insurance" (translate "other taxes") a $10/hr employee costs anywhere from about $15 to $40 per hour, depending on the job. Unless, of course, you ain't playing (and paying) by the rules.
Bottom line - if you turn an accountant loose on the problem, $20 is probably about the minimum a shop can charge for a VIP and not lose money on the deal. Those doing it for less are doing it as a "service" or a "loss-leader."
Rick
 
rgbmatt:
The scuba industry says it should be one year because, unlike most compressed gas tanks, scuba tanks are used in salt water. They are right.

My tanks have never seen salt water and I know of hundreds that have not either. Not all tanks see salt water, but water does cause corrosion even if it doesn't have salt in it.
 
Anyone who can manage to get salt water into a tank is more a danger than the tank itself and needs to give up diving.
 
Over the years this argument resurrects and it always follows the same pattern: some cyber-diving sophist (usually an irascible combination of cheap, ignorant and curmudgeon) makes a ranting troll of a post accusing dive shop owners and their evil minions (the dread dive shop monkeys) of participating in an International Conspiracy to force them to have their tanks inspected/regulators serviced/teeth brushed. Sometimes the mope got his dope from the friend of a guy that knows someone, maybe it came from applying a special knowledge of numerology to the secret codes that are hidden in all CGA publications, occasionally it was revealed to him only after he started using a premium brand of tinfoil for his window shades, whatever.

I can't speak for dental hygienists, but those of us who actually work in a shop quickly learn that the inspection service protocols not only don't enrich us but also make diving safer - we see the insides of enough tanks and regulators to have the first-hand proof. Statistics about sustained load cracking are interesting but, for those of us who have pulled tanks from service because of neck cracks, they are mostly academic. The corrosion characteristics of aluminum are complex but anyone who has ever stuck a pick 1cm into a hydroxide pit knows that arguing whether or not aluminum corrodes is as much a semantics discussion as a scientific one.

I see enough of your gear to know that the once-per-year inspection protocol for cylinders and regulators is appropriate. Given the nature some of you ascribe to us DSM's, some will find it odd that I actually care about the divers that use my services and am concerned with their benefit as well as my own plums when I say that I hope that every diver is conscientious enough to see that it gets done. As Rick pointed out, however, there are some divers out there that simply won't believe. Though I find most of them tedious as well as peevishly tenditious, I don't feel any personal animus towards them so long as they get their cylinders filled elsewhere. Fortunately, there are solutions available for those concientious objectors who eschew the visual inspection protocols, which I am happy to help facilitate. For a small commission. :wink:
 
captain:
Anyone who can manage to get salt water into a tank is more a danger than the tank itself and needs to give up diving.
Most salt water intrusion has this scenario:
Tank rides in on boat in rough seas; salt spray over deck much of the time
Salt water gets in valve orifice during boat ride
Tanks get "quick-turned" from boat to fill station to boat
Everybody's in a hurry getting the boat turned around and the tanks filled
Shop rat doesn't blast out the valve before filling
A few droplets of salt water get sprayed inside tank during fill
For tanks in service every day these tiny droplets add up over the course of a whole year, and can result in some significant corrosion.
A single instance can "freckle" the inside of a cylinder... ugly.
Rick
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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