VIP on AL cylinders = stupid $$$ game

[redacted]

But I still stand by the DOT and CGA requirements, which is a visual every 5 years during hydro. Because these requirements do not differentiate between cyrogenically distilled air or compressed atmosphere.

Annual visual inspection is not a government agency requirement. All you have to do is find a source of fills that does not insist on such an inspection being conducted.

 

[diverdown247]

Since I love to rile you people up, I'm gonna throw you something else to chew on. Me and one of my local gas suppliers had a discussion about this earlier today and came to agreement.

Yearly visual inspection of modern aluminum cylinders is stupid, and yet another dive industry scam to make money. In an aluminum cylinder which does not oxidize beyond a monolayer, "rust" isn't really a concern. I think it's left over from the days when every tank was steel and interior rust could theoretically cause corrosion from the inside and failure of the cylinder. Once the industry moved over (mostly) to aluminum tanks, why stop the requirement if it gets you $15-20 per tank per year?

But the conspiracy gets worse... valving and devalving an aluminum cylinder only puts needless wear and tear on the threads, which might cause it to fail inspection, or worse. The process therefore costs a diver more money, wears his cylinders out faster, and is quite possibly more unsafe than simply hydrostating every 5 years and having no visual.

Yet another accurate illustration that some people simply do not have a clue what they are talking about. The first mistake was listening to a gas distributor that deals with LAND BASED tanks. The distributor you referenced has not a clue about SCUBA equipment, which is apparent based on what you posted. This is why one should not use SCBA tanks for SCUBA and vice versa....2 completely different design intents.

There are more things involved in a VIP (yes, I was VIP certified at one point) than looking for residue. Want to find out just what is involved? Find someone who does edicurrent VIP as well as manual VIP and have that person walk you through a manual VIP on 2 undamaged tanks, 1 visibly damaged tank, and 1 very minorly (difficult to see w/o edicurrent) damaged tank. You might be surprised what will actually fail a tank.

It IS life support equipment after all.....so what's your life worth?

 

[Dive-aholic]

It IS life support equipment after all.....so what's your life worth?

If you're referring to corrosion resulting in bad air, okay. But if you're referring to the tendency for some tanks to explode - the tank that has a crack is not likely to cause problems during a dive, but during the fill. So the life support argument doesn't work in that case. However, it will take the life of the person filling the tank.

 

[diverdown247]

Good point Dive-aholic. Since I have filled tanks in the past, I certainly pay attention to VIP stickers and Hydro dates. We had a tank fail on a boat deck while we were on a dive in Cuba. Thank goodness, the Capt. was snorkeling around the boat when it failed. Simple heat-accentuated crack that was missed during a VIP from someone's private land-based gas retailer.

My other experience with a failure was a bad thread on a tank that was less than 6 months old. We were unable to tell if the tank had the bad thread originally or if it was the valve that pulled a thread out of shape to cause the failure.

It's still a Murphy's Law issue with me. We just have to rely on training to get us through Murphy's incidents.

 

[Scared Silly]

I think the "best practice" is to have the customer sign an agreement that gives the LDS the authority to condemn the tank and render it unuseable if they see fit.

Remember though, these are two different things. Condemning the cylinder means destroying the permit and pressure markings on it (not the serial number) or stamping "Condemned" and notifty the owner that it may not be filled for used in transport. It does not mean render the cylinder incapable of holding pressure.

However, at the OWNER's discretion they may give the tester authority to render the cylinder incapable of holding pressure.

When inspecting a cylinder I will concem it but I will not render it incapable of holding pressure. Further, before condeming a cylinder I get a second opinion on the less obvious cases.

Unfortnately, many shops do not have you sign anything. However, the person I quoted had tanks destory from paranoia not from any guidelines which is another story all together.

 

[cummings66]

some made in the 30s, some made post 2000. So how can I generally say how many times they have been filled? You are not required to log cylinder fills unless the cylinder is emptied more than every other day. (DOT requirement). So no, nobody knows how many times they have been filled. But it is

Without data to back up your claims the point is worthless. I can toss out meaningless numbers just as easy about the steel tanks we use on our compressors at work, but they're low pressure tanks. Without hard data what you say has absolutely no bearing on anything.

Numbers man, it's a numbers game. 99% of the people here make up 99.9% of the facts 99% of the time.

 

[daniel f aleman]

Wow! A lotta' words spent. I own 36 AL80 and do my own VIP, Eddy, and fills - but I am a PSI trained tank inspector, and a certified IANTD Gas and O2 technician. I rent out my tanks; and I then sell them as they each hit three years-old.

For your tank I'll charge $20 for the VIP, Eddy, and a full air fill. For an average diver with a couple of tanks, $40 - 100 per year for tank service is worth it.

 

[Crazy Fingers]

Yet another accurate illustration that some people simply do not have a clue what they are talking about. The first mistake was listening to a gas distributor that deals with LAND BASED tanks. The distributor you referenced has not a clue about SCUBA equipment, which is apparent based on what you posted. This is why one should not use SCBA tanks for SCUBA and vice versa....2 completely different design intents.

CGA and DOT do not distinguish between land based tanks and scuba tanks, so why should we? The thing I don't understand is that everyone here is saying I am wrong, but no one can tell me why the CGA/DOT are also wrong. No one wants to touch that argument...

I wonder how many of you people would agree with me if I had said CGA and DOT were stupid for not requiring yearly VIPs, and that the only reason they don't is because the government doesn't want to spend the money to do it. As paranoid and safety-concious (often ridiculously so) as the scuba community is, I bet 90% would agree with me.

There are more things involved in a VIP (yes, I was VIP certified at one point) than looking for residue. Want to find out just what is involved? Find someone who does edicurrent VIP as well as manual VIP and have that person walk you through a manual VIP on 2 undamaged tanks, 1 visibly damaged tank, and 1 very minorly (difficult to see w/o edicurrent) damaged tank. You might be surprised what will actually fail a tank.

I read CGA C-6.1, and even understand what it says. I know there's a lot more than looking for residue. That's not the statement. The statement is that CGA recommendations for a VIP and hydro every 5 years is sufficient. Yearly VIP is overkill.

It IS life support equipment after all.....so what's your life worth?

Do you pay someone to tear down your brakes and inspect the lines for cracks every year? They are under just as much pressure as scuba tanks and are exposed to all kinds of moisture and road salt. Do you have your airbag system taken apart and inspected every year? It is life saving equipment, and you use it every day.

 

[Crazy Fingers]

Remember though, these are two different things. Condemning the cylinder means destroying the permit and pressure markings on it (not the serial number) or stamping "Condemned" and notifty the owner that it may not be filled for used in transport. It does not mean render the cylinder incapable of holding pressure.

However, at the OWNER's discretion they may give the tester authority to render the cylinder incapable of holding pressure.

When inspecting a cylinder I will concem it but I will not render it incapable of holding pressure. Further, before condeming a cylinder I get a second opinion on the less obvious cases.

Unfortnately, many shops do not have you sign anything. However, the person I quoted had tanks destory from paranoia not from any guidelines which is another story all together.

Yes, and actually they have broken DOT regulations. DOT regulations state that you must get permission from the owner before you destroy a cylinder. You do not need permission to condemn it. Either way, I would be pissed. I hate "crusader" shops.

 

[oxyhacker]

Actually as a visual inspector you do not even have the authority to obliterate the tank markings or stamp the tank condemned, unless you have specifically been given permission to do so by the tank owner.

Remember though, these are two different things. Condemning the cylinder means destroying the permit and pressure markings on it (not the serial number) or stamping "Condemned" and notifty the owner that it may not be filled for used in transport. It does not mean render the cylinder incapable of holding pressure.

However, at the OWNER's discretion they may give the tester authority to render the cylinder incapable of holding pressure.