Very strange thread -- would you dive with me?

[Gombessa]

I also think it speaks to the fact that people these days tend to want/need a title or letters behind their names in order to feel valid. Otherwise their opinion might not carry weight.

That sounds like the difference between diving on the internet and diving in real life. In real life, diving is about having fun. On the net, what you're talking about seems a lot more important to people.

 

[TSandM]

I don't have anything against education per se but I also like to remember the day to day context I'm living in. You really don't need fighter jet training in order to fly a kite.

You don't. But the analogy breaks down a bit, because fighter jet training won't make you a better kite flyer, whereas training can make you a better diver. And what do I mean by better? More stable, more confident, with a wider toolbox of skills and a deeper understanding that will help you make good decisions, before and during the dive.

Although it's not really pertinent to the original subject of this thread, I did have a conversation with HBDiveGirl this afternoon about this. I told her there was a time when I was heavily focused on skills and classes and drilling, but I came out the other end of that tunnel, and what I discovered was that the things I had been taught and had spent so much time diligently practicing had, quite simply, made my diving more FUN. That's what JJ said would happen, and he was right

 

[diverrex]

Although it's not really pertinent to the original subject of this thread, I did have a conversation with HBDiveGirl this afternoon about this. I told her there was a time when I was heavily focused on skills and classes and drilling, but I came out the other end of that tunnel, and what I discovered was that the things I had been taught and had spent so much time diligently practicing had, quite simply, made my diving more FUN. That's what JJ said would happen, and he was right

How many years of education and training did you have before you started your "job"? See it's a process you are quite used to.

 

[DaleC]

You don't. But the analogy breaks down a bit, because fighter jet training won't make you a better kite flyer, whereas training can make you a better diver. And what do I mean by better? More stable, more confident, with a wider toolbox of skills and a deeper understanding that will help you make good decisions, before and during the dive.

The comparison expressed a simple sentiment and wasn't meant to be taken that literally. And while I agree that some training can be of benefit to most people I sometimes think there is a point where it becomes overkill and can actually mask an underlying lack of confidence in ones own abilities. I also think people think and learn in different ways.

I don't see it so much as a problem for the one taking the training (to each their own I firmly believe) but I do think that some people transfer their own insecurities onto other people - thus thinking that if someone else doesn't take a similar form of training they must be deficient in some way (or elitist as some view DIR [I don't]). There usually is more than one way to skin a cat as they say and if we become too invested in one mode of thinking/training we may run the risk of not being able to see the abilities inherant in other equally effective methods (hey, I should have used that one in the manifold vs independant thread!).

I also know that I am just as prone to this transference in some form or another as anyone else.

Currently we are in an "education" paradigm. It hasn't always been that way though. Previous to it was the "hard work" paradigm of many of our parents parents. We recently hosted some Korean teachers who described the "self sacrifice" paradigm of post war South Korea. I just finished reading about pre war Germany and its militarist paradigm. To understand which paradigm one favors one asks the question: "What is the best way for me/us to advance our position. Today we say: Education.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Look around here and see how many posts and even entire threads you can find on how under trained and unworthy divers who aren't trained to the particular ideals of various people.

I've noticed this ... but I try not to hold it against folks like Walter, Thalassamania and DCBC for continually bringing it up.

... but none of those are DIR, yanno ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Sas]

I'm staying out of all that other stuff but this does resonate with me. I have noticed that being "just a diver" seems a little passe these days and many people tend to need to jump from newbie to DM/Instructor and/or become tech aligned very quickly.

Only on the internet, I have noticed. The divers I have met personally, there are not many who are trying to jump quickly from newbie to instructor or tech diver, etc. There are a few for sure but that is no different to most things in life. What I see around me when diving is so completely different to what is on Scubaboard! Most people just don't care about their gear in such great detail and don't do much training beyond AOW and most only dive a few times a year, and hardly any practice skills on a regular basis. On forums you get people who are really really into this whole diving thing, and tend to be opinionated, care a lot about the finer details, and may come across as too serious about things. But there are more divers not on Scubaboard than there is on, and therefore I don't think you can generalise such as you have in the post I quoted.

 

[Hoomi]

I don't like monofilament anywhere NEAR me!

But the rest of that post is exactly what I want to figure out how to dispel. It's actually quite FUN to go out with new divers. I get to piggyback on their excitement at what they see. I don't mind a short dive, or a simple or shallow one (I spent an hour the other night with a max depth of 20 feet, because that's where the cool stuff to see was). I get plenty of long, deep or complicated dives. I might feel differently about diving off a charter, if I had spent a bunch of money to go out on the boat, but for shore diving? It's all about getting wet, and if I can do that and encourage a new diver to keep at it, it's an awfully good day.

It sounds to me a great deal like when parents get to take young children to Disneyland for the first time. I know for us, by the time we were grown up and married, Disneyland had lost a lot of its magic. We knew how various effects were accomplished, we'd ridden all the rides more times than we could count (I grew up not much more than an hour's drive away from Anaheim), and the realities of everyday life had dispelled much of the fantasy appeal. When our children got old enough to experience it, though, we got to relive the magic and the wonder through them. It's hard to remain stoic in the presence of someone who is truly awestruck by what they are seeing, and there is a contagious element to the thrill and joy in seeing the amazing.

You know, when I start to look at it from that perspective, it almost seems selfish to NOT want to dive with someone like Lynne...

 

[Hoomi]

You don't. But the analogy breaks down a bit, because fighter jet training won't make you a better kite flyer,

Oh, I don't know... have you seen some of the modern stunt kites? I'd imagine the trained reflexes and spatial awareness a fighter pilot needs would come in quite handy!

 

[Bronson]

Yes any time you come to Asia.

 

[DaleC]

...I don't think you can generalise such as you have in the post I quoted.

Well I suppose I could change the many to some though it was not my intention to generalize. Just an observation and a discussion point that I find interesting. Once we get past the fact that Lynne seems like a great lady and sure we wouldn't mind diving with her there's got to be something else to talk about.

I'm also not slagging education. Like some have said, rec diving should be fun. I sometimes think (perhaps only on the net?) that we tend to forget that and instead turn it into a never ending struggle for perfection. I also think that the water draws on our (sub) conscious fears and we grasp at anything that will provide a buffer between us and the unknown.

Again, just thoughts - not hard held ideals.