Venice - $168 fine for no flag..

[fgray1]

I mostly agree with your post.

However, I disagree that investigators are looking for the "easiest answer." I can name many defense attorneys that will embarass you on the stand for doing that. You might recognize some of them: Johnnie Cochran, Mark Geragos.

The "cop on the beat" had disappeared for a long time, but it's slowly making its way back. During the heyday of the beat cop, populations weren't what they are now. People want coverage of their areas, but don't want to pay for it, so the most effective way to do that is with a lone cop in a car. Police administrators are finally realizing that while effective at covering larger areas with smaller forces, it isn't doing much for public relations.

If by "click" you mean "clique", when you're constantly berated by a public that expects you to know everything and do everything perfectly with a minimum of information, tools, training, and pay, you'd only hang out with other cops too. This is nothing new...ever read a Joseph Wambaugh novel?

Its the sound a chain makes as it passes through a gear. Which is guilded and unbreakable. Which in my mind is not a good thing. The only way you can change outside opinions of any CLICK is to change the attitudes of those in the click. That can't be done from the outside. You see here in this thread how those in law enforcement defend what they say. If you say anything they don't like you become a Jerk. Cops are people and people are not perfect.
The words "TO PROTECT AND SERVE" Comes to mind and these days they do niether.

 

[SharkBaite]

I'll stay out of this one... but I will say that on my second dive at VB this weekend I was buzzed Pretty close though this time I didn't see the screws passing overhead.

"Why can't we all just get along"

I think the fines should be reversed and charge diver 50 for no flag and the darn boaters should pay the full amount. What would happen to them if they were to hit a diver that was coming up?.
What would the fine be $50 for failing to stay clear of it. Charge with careless operation of a vessel. it should be more like $500 for failing to stay clear of a flag unless you idling towards the flag to join them, but if they nail a diver then it should be considered assult with a deadly weapon and should be a felony....


My .02 cents
By the way I am a Diver and a Boater. I see these infractions all the time. as I spend as much time under the water as I do above it.

 

[Scubaguy62]

While I haven't waited 24 hours, I did wait at least 8 and as far as I'm concerned that's long enough for me. YMMV. Plus, this given the previous history of Scubaboard, this thread may simply disappear to never-never-land (rather than just be locked) so I'd like to get my thoughts in before this happens.

If the discussion was limited to just uneven enforcement of a particular situation, I wouldn't even be here; notice I didn't get involved in anything that the original thread talks about. But unfortunately, it degenerated into a cop-bashing fest.

And sorry, but in re-reading the posts I came up with even more law-enforcement bashing that I originally noticed. I don't know how you can say there's no cop-bashing in here when all you have to do is scroll up to find:



and that's before the post that really got the ball rolling here:



and if that wasn't enough:



and just to stir the pot even more:



Other than the negative incident he speaks off with the off-duty Broward deputy, he's simply spreading more unfounded generalizations to get another poster extremely angry, in my opinion for the sole purpose of angering another poster. And considering her "goodbye" post I would say it worked real well. I'd call that TROLLING. Is that not in violation of the TOS?

Let me put it this way: remove "law enforcement" and insert a member of a minority here. Would the mods consider this acceptable behavior? Of course not!! And with a few political threads, we were warned that bashing of parties, and those who support them, would not be tolerated. So why is the bashing of law enforcers being tolerated?

I'm sorry this thread got derailed, but certain things were said that simply could not be ignored, especially if it's causing other members to leave. I just wish the mods would have stepped in before it got to that point.

And if the reference to "high strung" and "needing different professions" is a reference to me, I'll reply that prior to being offered this job, I underwent a thorough (to the point of being intrusive) background investigation that included an evaluation by a psychologist who specializes in dealing specifically with law enforcers, a qualification that you admittedly lack.

I'd love to stick around and post more, but my lunch break is nearly over and I wouldn't want to offend anybody here by making them think I am usurping taxpayer dollars by going a minute or two over my allotted break.

RonDawg go on and think what you wish. I will not lose a single second of sleep over what you think of me because contrary to the position you've taken, I choose not to allow your views to upset me, and it has been about 22 hrs since I looked at this thread.

If you're as zealous about being just and fair in your capacity as a police officer, at all times, as you are about defending (which IMHO is totally unnecessary) your profession against anything I, or anyone else who shares my views may say, then KUDOS to you!!!! OTOH, if you're otherwise as zealous, I'm really sorry, but it appears your abilities to handle an argument in which someone disagrees with you, without being offended, need some work, and I, as a reasonable, law abiding citizen, would seriously question your abilities of remaining fair, impartial, cool, calm, and collected even in the face of "stupidity." It is that ability what separates the happy from the unhappy, and it is an ability that comes from having lived as long as I have. Oh, and as far as you turning down my invitation to meet some of my friends from the Florida Conch Divers club and do a dive with us, don't worry. Like Pete said, it's a big ocean out there and I for one will not lose any sleep over what your opinion is of me. Despite what you might think, happiness does abound in my life, and that's what gets me from day to day.

 

[RonDawg]

NetDoc:

In addition to being a law enforcement officer, I was also a moderator on a popular law enforcement related board, until a combination of a lack of time and the sale of the board to a new owner, sadly forced me to give up the position. Trust me, you haven't seen trolling until you've moderated a law enforcement board. So I know what it's like to be a board moderator. I will disagree with you about people "venting" rather than "bashing", but unlike some here, it's an opinion I can respect.

Though I will point out this thread in which poor H2Andy is having to defend his profession (the legal profession) from others who are bashing it much like some are bashing mine. At the end Uncle Pug finally locks the thread with this admonition:

Attacking any class, race, gender, political affiliation, religious persuasion or even occupation is contrary to spirit of our Terms Of Service... which you've no doubt all read before agreeing to them and being given posting privileges here.

So, again my question to you is, why is bashing law enforcement acceptable when a precedent has already been set with the lawyer-bashing one?

Fgray:

My arguments here were to refute someone's myths about law enforcement that were based on old, tired generalizations. If that's "defending what they say" then I'm guilty as charged and not the slightest bit apologetic for it.

I will disagree with you about law enforcers in general calling people "jerks" with those they don't agree. As has been the case here on ScubaBoard, name-calling is most definitely not exclusive to the law enforcement types here; far from it. That is, unless the DIR forums and the Ontario Fresh Water Freaks forums are dominated by cops. Again, another tired generalization.

And before you attack my peers for failing to "Protect and Serve" perhaps you and the other moderators should examine your clique/click and find out why the TOS is being inconsistently enforced (see my response to NetDoc). As moderators you are in effect the "cops" of ScubaBoard.

Scubaguy:

After finding, then reading the thread that H2Andy was having to vigorously defend himself and his profession, imagine my surprise when I find you posting there, being just a tad sensitive yourself when someone decides to attack YOUR profession:

We mock what we don't know, and I'm sorry Seabear, either you don't know what you're talking about, or your MO is the wish factor. It seems you'd like to live in some place like Utopia or perhaps Mars.

Tell you what, God forbid you get in an accident and end up damaged to the point you can no longer work and provide for your family, how about you call the guy who hit you and ask him to pay your reasonable medical expenses for the rest of your life, along with your lost wages, and your pain and suffering. Good luck with that!!!

So I ask you, how can I sue if a- we kill all the lawyers, or b- if we go help someone else instead?

A common lawyers joke says that 1000 lawyers chained together at the bottom of the ocean is called a good start. I submit to you that 10% of that number of politicians would be even a better start.

It's apparent that while you're good at dishing it out, you're not so good at taking it yourself.

I'm sure you know what my feelings are as a cop towards the legal profession (and yes that includes paralegals). But as tempting as it was to join in the lawyer-bashing, I had enough maturity and manners to not become part of the bashing-crowd. Any contributions I would make to the thread would be of FACTUAL encounters I've had with attorneys, particularly the dirty tricks they like to play in court.

Uncle Pug ended up closing the thread before I had a chance to do that, and it was a good thing in my opinion (I guess that's why he's called "The Voice of Reason"). Yet the attacks on lawyers, other than the opening salvo (the "Let's kill all the lawyers" quote from Shakespeare), pale in comparison to what you have been saying about cops.

 

[Scubaguy62]

Man, you're really comparing apples to oranges, but be that as it may, I will point out my earlier post in which I stated that, as you, I'm zealous about the things I believe in. I truly hope we're all that way. Also, I will point out what I said in Wendy's "Goodbye" thread, admitting to not always watching the "tone" of my writing (I seem to recall my college professor saying that was important). Moreover, I submit to you that the aforementioned quote is not less factually truthful than what I've stated in this thread. Did I generalize? Yes. So if in your mind that makes me out to be anti-cop, or anti-law enforcement, so be it. As I said before, I won't lose a second of sleep over it. My concious goes to bed with me at night, and it has no problems allowing me to sleep, because I know I'm not anti-cop, or anti-law enforcement, and that what I am is anti-injustice. I urge you to take a look at the last sentence on post #41 of this thread, a response to one of Wendy's posts, where I state....I'm willing to concede that my perception is limited to Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami-Dade counties, if you're willing to concede that you don't know how police officers in these counties behave. How 'bout you? can you, or better yet, will you concede to that? Perhaps that will end this matter. And, while your jurisdiction is California, and then most likely limited to that which is in the California Criminal (or is it penal?) Code, please note that the argument on H2Andy's thread was dealing with a matter of a civil nature, a subject in which most police officers I know do not even look into getting involved, as it is not as clear-cut as criminal law. Civil litigation requires true abilities to interpret the law in all ways, which is something not everyone who claims to know the law can do.

Also, as far as your feelings for the legal profession, please share with me, and the rest of us, how much you, or any other police officer can do to remedy what I state here....
God forbid you get in an accident and end up damaged to the point you can no longer work and provide for your family, how about you call the guy who hit you and ask him to pay your reasonable medical expenses for the rest of your life, along with your lost wages, and your pain and suffering. Good luck with any police officer helping you with that!!!

 

[RonDawg]

Man, you're really comparing apples to oranges

Not really. As I've said you have no problems rehashing old generalizations about cops, but God forbid someone repeats that quote from Shakespeare...

I will point out my earlier post in which I stated that, as you, I'm zealous about the things I believe in. I truly hope we're all that way.

While you defend your own zealousness, you attack mine as as affecting my ability to be "fair, impartial, cool, calm, and collected." Never mind you've never met me, much less seen me under pressure (like that mass murder incident I spoke of). Is that more "I can dish it out but I can't take it myself?"

I'm willing to concede that my perception is limited to Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami-Dade counties, if you're willing to concede that you don't know how police officers in these counties behave. How 'bout you? can you, or better yet, will you concede to that? Perhaps that will end this matter.

While I concede that I don't know any cops in most of those places, I do know cops who work other parts of S. Florida. And while they're not particularly enamored of the region you speak of ("ghetto" is a term they often use to describe it, ESPECIALLY Miami-Dade) the cops there are holding up quite well despite the anti-law enforcement atmosphere (gee like that's a surprise). Which is why my pal from FHP transferred out of that region and up to Tallahassee.

And, while your jurisdiction is California, and then most likely limited to that which is in the California Criminal (or is it penal?) Code, please note that the argument on H2Andy's thread was dealing with a matter of a civil nature, a subject in which most police officers I know do not even look into getting involved, as it is not as clear-cut as criminal law. Civil litigation requires true abilities to interpret the law in all ways, which is something not everyone who claims to know the law can do.

Lawyer bashing is lawyer bashing...remember the Shakespeare quote was the opening salvo. While there was a lot of discussion about civil issues, the underlying point of the thread was someone's disdain for lawyers in general, whether civil or criminal.

Also, as far as your feelings for the legal profession, please share with me, and the rest of us, how much you, or any other police officer can do to remedy what I state here....
God forbid you get in an accident and end up damaged to the point you can no longer work and provide for your family, how about you call the guy who hit you and ask him to pay your reasonable medical expenses for the rest of your life, along with your lost wages, and your pain and suffering. Good luck with any police officer helping you with that!!!

And that's exactly what I was trying to tell you when I told you to go report your woes to your firefighter buddies, since you have greater respect for them than the cops.

 

[Scubaguy62]

Ron, I think we both will agree that we're "guilty," for lack of a better term, of something here, trying to make eachother see the other's opinions, based on experiences, to which the other isn't privy. IMHO, that's like the tail wagging the dog. If you don't agree with me on this, so be it. Like I said, no sleep lost here. Every rule has its exceptions, and I can acknowledge that there are police officers out there that are honorable, such as my friend Julio, and Baitedstorm's husband (sorry vickie...his name escapes me), but the fact is that they're few and far between. Can you acknowledge the same about my profession?

You say I'm good at dishing out, but not good at taking in, and I submit to you that while sometimes a retreat is a good defense, a better defense is almost always a good ofense. Dang, I hope the Dolphins remember that

Anyway, if you won't, then I will put an end to this issue here. You want to talk more about it? Then I sincerely renew my invitation. Come down, meet some of my friends, meet my wife scbababe and my kids, and get an idea how "unhappy" I am, While we're at it, let's get a few dives in, have a few drinks, and let's talk about this...on second thought, let's not have a few drinks if we're going to talk about this. At any rate, good luck in your endeavors, and whatever else you do. But, above all, safe ascents!!!!

 

[fgray1]

Police can not and will never be able to Protect and serve anyone.
They investigate and solve crimes. That's all they can do these days.
Don't miss understand me. Things have changed over the years. It's not all their fault but they do contribute to it.
I know that on 6 differant times when haveing a gun on my hip prevented a crime from happening to me.
My house was robbed once and attempted to be robbed 2 weeks later. When the alarm went off the police showed up 2 hours after me and even though I showed them where and how they tried to get in they gave me a ticket for a false alarm.
I don't dislike cops. I just don't have allot of use for them.

 

[eandiver]

My house was robbed too....the PCSO was here 2 min after I called......and they caught the guy. My little section of Lealman is not the best. At best here I would go 60/40 if I had a gun on my hip. If you don't have any use for them then the next time something happens don't call them. Solve it yourself.

 

[Orlando Eric]

I have seen boats on plane headed at me while in the water. The sad fact is all it takes to be a boater is the money down. However NOW if I see a boat headed for me and I can get the hull number I am better aquainted with the procedure to do something about it! I am for a boaters license and a testing standard to operate one.

I, as a LEO was under the impression that all LEO's where included in the remarks about eating doughnuts and doing my job.

I assure you that I defend the rights of all people. I am one of many officers I know who carry the little copy to the constitution with them JUST as a REMINDER of what I am doing.

I will not deny that there are some slugs in the profession, but I will also reveal to you that the old days of the "cover up" and corruption in law enforcement is on its way out. Now more than ever if you break the public trust and make the rest of us look bad guess who is going to tell it all at the IA hearing?

Speaking as a former Broward resident (1981-1995) is it better or worse than when Nick was sheriff?

Take pictures of the people buzzing flags and as for the laws being bassackwards in the spirit of NOV 2 WRITE YOUR ELECTED officials!

As for the COP bashing, I would be VERY surprised to be called something new and original. I hardly answer to anything other than PACMF these days. (those of you behind the badge know that one.)

Vote! Make Phone Calls! Write letters and emails. Your elected officials care about votes even if they do not care about Divers, Boaters, or the precious oceans themselves.

Eric