Vein blocked by blood clot in leg, coumadin therapy started

[Wreck Wench]

Dang it...that is an offer I can't refuse! (That is to be in the same company as your wife!)

I will say this...9 out of the top 10 causes of death in the US are diet related...yep...they are a result of what we eat or don't eat. Only one leading cause of death in the US is not diet related...yep...accidents!

You are right about fixing the problem and then working on a more permanent 'life long' solution. However, without proper micronutrition the cells starve...or are weakened. Most medicines attack weak cells i.e. in theory the damaged or unhealthy ones. The real issue is when all your cells are weak and therefore not able to respond properly or as effectively to the medicines being given.

Its like spending thousands of dollars to overhaul your car's engine and then not putting good oil back into to it and running the car on cheap, watered down, dirty gas. The 'fuel' is so poor that the car can't run properly despite all the 'overhaul' and 'medicinal measures' you've taken. In this case the fuel for the body is micronutrition...far more important than how many carbs, proteins and fats you eat.

Fortunately Don eats fairly healthy by American standards, but he could easily boost the overall effectiveness of his diet with several simple steps and enable his body to work more effectively with the medicines he is taking...not to mention help his diving! And lord knows he'll do just about anything to improve his diving! :laughing:

p.s. Pete...'mirconutrition' does NOT equal 'low cal'....but being blonde and all it took me reading it twice to get your sly sense of humor!!! Good one!

You sound like my wife....LOL she's always kicking around with magic potions too.

I'm sure that 9 times out of 10 these things are somehow linked to diet but in my mind there are two steps to this. First fix the problem then fix the diet/life-style. short-term/long-term.

(depending on what you say next we'll see how much like my wife you really are... )

Don,

Hang in there, brother! Something like that would freak the bejezus out of me so I can imagine (a little bit, I hope) how you feel.

R..

 

[DandyDon]

Thanks y'all. Got another coumadin test today, as I thought - it'll take 7.5 mg to keep up the leval the doc wants. Leg feels LOTS better, but then part of that is me taking it easy.

Postponed my Deco Training until next year at least. Taking everything easier, eating my veggies, etc.

Kamala, I'll PM you later about your ideas, thanks.

 

[Aeolus]

Thanks y'all. Got another coumadin test today, as I thought - it'll take 7.5 mg to keep up the leval the doc wants. Leg feels LOTS better, but then part of that is me taking it easy.

Postponed my Deco Training until next year at least. Taking everything easier, eating my veggies, etc.

Kamala, I'll PM you later about your ideas, thanks.

Hey Don,

Do not despair; I have been on Coumadin (rat poison) for almost four years now, after having open heart surgery to replace the ascending Aeorta and an aeortic valve replacement. You did not see me missing any dives on Utila did you? This is just something that you need to monitor, but it is certainly not a big problem. A few things to check on or at least be aware of.

1) The shots were probably Lovenox - given to the stomach area right? Thios gets your levels up more quickly and do not stay in the system as long. The Coumadin takes about 2-3 days to get stable levels in your blood.
2) My cardiologist says to only use Coumadin, not the generic Warfarin, as the results are not as predictable for some reason. One would think that one rat poison is like another, but I guess not. I have had two friends on Warfarin and both needed much more of it and were not as stable in their PT readings. It would seem like 7.5 mg is rather high as I only take 3 - 4 and with a valve replacement, it requires a fairly high level of PT readings (2.5 to 3.5).
3) Some DVTs do resolve with the treatment, but you may be on it for life as one of my friends is. The other has been taken off for about a year now. Both of them had DVTs.
4) I resumed diving a few months after the surgery and I would think that yours could be even shorter, since it is just a treatment, not having you insides ripped out. BE SURE to check with your hemotologist BEFORE returning to diving.
5) Find a good place to get the blood checked (single drop) "instantly" rather than drawing it and sending it to a lab.
6) Much like Kamala said, sort of; keep you diet constant, as it has a BIG effect on the blood levels; especially any green leafy veggies.

Best wishes to you and good luck. PM me if you need anything specific. I will try to help if I can.

DSDO

 

[scubaren]

Don,

My thoughts and prayers are with you. Hope you are up and about and ready to dive soon!

Peace.

JE

 

[DandyDon]

Do not despair; I have been on Coumadin (rat poison) for almost four years now, after having open heart surgery to replace the ascending Aeorta and an aeortic valve replacement. You did not see me missing any dives on Utila did you?

Yeah, I saw your post on this from earlier when I ran searches here. That was encouraging. Do you advise dive ops or new buddies about this?

The previous employee who used to like to pinch my arm was in the store when I returned from my blood test yesterday, and I stopped 10 feet away to warn her to not - quickly explaining why.

The shots were probably Lovenox

That's it! Could not remember the name. They had a significant effect, as bruising started after only 3 days. Had to ask the nurse to not pinch my belly, and besides - there is a good fat layer there anyway. The other nurse looked the shots up in the book and said they could be given in the arm, so we did the last few there. No pushups, tho, like I usually do.

4) I resumed diving a few months after the surgery and I would think that yours could be even shorter, since it is just a treatment, not having you insides ripped out. BE SURE to check with your hemotologist BEFORE returning to diving.

I had a run scheduled for practice dives in New Mexico for next weekend, with an able bodied buddy who doesn't mind humping tanks, etc and a good ER 3 blocks from the hole just in case, but we put that off until mid November maybe.

5) Find a good place to get the blood checked (single drop) "instantly" rather than drawing it and sending it to a lab.

Yep, got that covered at the Doc's - take a few seconds. The nurse said that machine cost $4,000, so it may have a lot of uses, as compared to the $1,000 machine I may go ahead and get.

Don,

My thoughts and prayers are with you. Hope you are up and about and ready to dive soon!

Peace.

JE

Thanks. I am not at all surprised by the warm support here, but I am very grateful.

 

[Aeolus]

Yeah, I saw your post on this from earlier when I ran searches here. That was encouraging. Do you advise dive ops or new buddies about this?

Yep, got that covered at the Doc's - take a few seconds. The nurse said that machine cost $4,000, so it may have a lot of uses, as compared to the $1,000 machine I may go ahead and get.

Hey Don,

I always travel with a current list of my meds, complete with doseages, and all of the various ailments I have. I also have copies of a dive release form that I made up; which is signed by my primary care physician, because some dive operators do not want to let you dive, without one, if you tell the truth on their medical form, which I recommend. Lying to them is deluding yourself and is a disservice to your dive buddy. It also has the phone numbers and adresses for my PCP and Cardiologist. I give a copy to my dive buddy and sometimes (usually) give a copy to the dive op. I gave one to Steve at Deep Blue. I also keep a copy in my room in plain sight, just in case. Most of these things I would suggest EVERYONE should do; but ESPECIALLY if there is ANY medical issue that you have.

The friend of mine, with the DVT, and I considered getting our own machine, but the cost to an individual for each test strip, in addition to the machine, was $10 each. The doctor said that they would not "believe" it anyway and that it would not be necessary - your choice. I do not remember the brand just now, but there are not very many sources.

Take care of yourself.

DSDO

 

[GoBlue!]

Don,

Sorry to hear about your DVT, but glad to hear it was diagnosed before breaking loose. A few points to followup some of the posts here:

1. The anticoagulation treatment course for DVT is highly variable, depending on the individual patient & identified cause of the DVT. For one set of reputable recommendations, see this.

2. To the person who wishes that docs would look for other clots in the body when they find one, it's just not that simple. In fact, you could very likely do more harm than good by going on a fishing expedition without substantial cause.

3. I'm all for cardiovascular risk reduction, and finding out how you can better lower your cardiovascular risk. Frequently, though, DVTs crop up for completely separate reasons that arterial thromboses (the pesky clots that cause heart attacks, strokes, etc.). So don't think that if you "pass" your heart tests, you're free from getting a DVT. Heck, even if you have a low risk of heart disease, you could still drop dead from a heart attack the next day. I've seen it happen several times... It's all about the proabilities.

4. As for "micronutrition," I'm all for healthy eating & smart nutrition. It doesn't appear that nutritional supplements were being toted here, but I echo the previous warning that you shouldn't take ANYTHING that your doctor doesn't know about when on Coumadin. I've seen people land in the ICU with major bleeds because of it.... Dietary factors also impact Coumadin's effects, as mentioned previously as well.

5. To the person who thought 7.5mg was high..... Everyone's different. It's likely not because of warfarin vs. Coumadin. I've had patients with therapeutic INRs on 1.25mg every other day, and I've had people needing to take 10mg daily. Metabolism's an interesting thing, isn't it?

Good luck, Don! Sorry it puts a kink in your diving, but you sound like you have a great attitude & this too shall pass!

Jim

 

[Wreck Wench]

You are absolutely right that the foods you eat and the supplements you take must be reported to your doctor as they may or can interfere with the drug Coumadin. However, the rub is that veggies especially green leafy veggies notably spinach is one of the foods that is of concern to docs when on this drug yet these same foods are so rich in antioxidants and actually help fight strokes. 80% of strokes in Americans are caused by clots in the blood vessals of the brain and head. The rest come from hemorrhages or 'bleeding strokes' caused when vessels rupture, spilling blood into the brain. Thus foods that help ward off clots, keep blood vessels flexible and unclogged, and keep blood pressure normal are good bets for preventing strokes. Even as little as ONE extra daily serving of the right food may cut an astounding 50-60% or more off your chances of having or dying of a stroke. Any drug that promised to prevent that many strokes a year would be an overnight sensation, despite its cost and potential side effects. Yet you can eat the 'right' foods, accomplish the same results and experience minimal cost and no side effects.

As for interactions with the meds, eating food in its whole form causes variable amounts in your blood supply, however taking the whole food in a concentrated extract form allows your doctor to know precisely how much you are consuming daily and therefore regulate your Coumadin accordingly. The issue isn't that you should never eat green leafy veggies while taking the drug but rather ensure that you do so in a predictable amount on a regular schedule so that your doctor can adjust accordingly. Besides, spinach is one of those miracle foods that helps reduce strokes.

4. As for "micronutrition," I'm all for healthy eating & smart nutrition. It doesn't appear that nutritional supplements were being toted here, but I echo the previous warning that you shouldn't take ANYTHING that your doctor doesn't know about when on Coumadin. I've seen people land in the ICU with major bleeds because of it.... Dietary factors also impact Coumadin's effects, as mentioned previously as well.

 

[GoBlue!]

...However, the rub is that veggies especially green leafy veggies notably spinach is one of the foods that is of concern to docs when on this drug yet these same foods are so rich in antioxidants and actually help fight strokes.

Show me the data.

...Even as little as ONE extra daily serving of the right food may cut an astounding 50-60% or more off your chances of having or dying of a stroke....Besides, spinach is one of those miracle foods that helps reduce strokes.

Show me the data. These are very strong statements that could change practice, and I'd love to see the quality of evidence for this. I'm not saying I don't believe it, I'm just saying that a heavy dose of skepticism is important, I think.

As for interactions with the meds, eating food in its whole form causes variable amounts in your blood supply, however taking the whole food in a concentrated extract form allows your doctor to know precisely how much you are consuming daily and therefore regulate your Coumadin accordingly.

Nope. The FDA does not regulate the quality of these "extracts," and the labeled quantity of supplement is frequently inaccurate. I'm not citing this from the mainstream medical literature....the complementary/alternative medicine journals themselves are publishing this (e.g., Chua R, et al. "Quality, labeling accuracy, and cost comparison of purified soy isoflavinoid products." J Altern Complement Med 2004 Dec; 10(6):1053-60 and Krochmal R, et al. "Phytochemical Assays of Commercial Botanical Dietary Supplements." Evid Based Complement Alternat Med 2004 Dec; 1(3): 305-313.....among others).

Sorry to get off topic. Good luck, Don!

Jim

 

[DandyDon]

Sorry to get off topic. Good luck, Don!

No problem, Jim - not at all. You are both friends, I appreciate y'all's concern and interest, and I would like to see data, too.

I wonder if my need for more coumadin is from my farm boy diea, lots of veggies. And I do like spinach. :approve_2 Probly be best to eat healthy, monitor the blood levels, and follow orders.