Upgrade to a Modern Doublehose Regulator

[oldmossback]

For the many questions:

The Mk 3 advantages are thus: DIN compatiable with a AL Titan Yoke-to-DIN adapter and still fit between the tank valve and the back of the diver. This short height from can to nozzle lip also allows the Mk3 to be used with a yoke on many standard hard backpac's with the tank low on the back.

The Mossback hookaport adapter nut, I designed 3 years ago to use with a splitter, is no longer needed as the hookaport is gone in this design. This unit has 4 useable LP ports, 2 on the right side for octo and drysuit, one BC offset on top and one on the left for whatever is needed. One HP SPG port on the left that is 7/16 for the modern spg hose.......I could put more LP and HP ports in, but I do not see the need for this for Sport Diving.

As I stated previously, I am more interested in the regular diving folks inside and outside the USA who might want to have a modern looking, modern configured USD Doublehose. This is why I posted here for all divers. The first units are scheduled to be sold overseas.

Dan at Vintage Scuba Supply has posted his opinons on the prototype, the one problem he found which has been corrected and photos of the bottom side and its performace.
Dan also has told me he will build up any regs for folks who don't feel comfortable doing this themselves. I am negotating with a LDS here in Fort Worth to also do this for anyone who needs this service.

 

[Slonda828]

The phoenix does everything you just said, based upon my dealings with it. You can even fit an AL DIN adapter to it. I mean, if you want to make something like this just to make it, then that's totally cool. I do stuff like this all the time. I just honest to God feel like since we are already such a small community you could have spent all this time to make something that we did not already have availible. Maybe you could have made something...new. I applaud your effort though.

 

[oldmossback]

The phoenix does everything you just said, based upon my dealings with it. You can even fit an AL DIN adapter to it. I mean, if you want to make something like this just to make it, then that's totally cool. I do stuff like this all the time. I just honest to God feel like since we are already such a small community you could have spent all this time to make something that we did not already have availible. Maybe you could have made something...new. I applaud your effort though.

I find this interesting that you think this is for the small vintage community......I have stated twice now that this is not focused on them and that this is just a step for me for my ultimate goal in two years or so......I do not know what else I can say........anyway I have posted my intent.........these are for sale in limited qty only.......

 

[Gilldiver]

It sounds like you have replaced the second stage body with a new design that puts the LP ports into it. A few photos would help.

But, have you gone into the mouth piece yet? a tune-able mouthpiece would be good for all double hose users and would make using a stage or pony bottle easier.

Good luck with the project, it is a very small nitch market right now, but you could grow it with a new design, as there are people who just don't trust any "old" designs.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I find this interesting that you think this is for the small vintage community......I have stated twice now that this is not focused on them and that this is just a step for me for my ultimate goal in two years or so......I do not know what else I can say........anyway I have posted my intent.........these are for sale in limited qty only.......

I think you aremissing slonda's point - thre Phoenix was not really directed at the vintage diver market - they tend to be purists and don't need/want LP ports.

Again, the observation is just that you have taken a slightly different approach to meeting the same niche as the phoenix. Pictures would help as what you are promising is a different second stage body with different LP port locations and a shorter overall lenght.

As a technical diver I may or may not be interested depending on the hose routing.

 

[Slonda828]

I think you aremissing slonda's point - thre Phoenix was not really directed at the vintage diver market - they tend to be purists and don't need/want LP ports.

Again, the observation is just that you have taken a slightly different approach to meeting the same niche as the phoenix. Pictures would help as what you are promising is a different second stage body with different LP port locations and a shorter overall lenght.

As a technical diver I may or may not be interested depending on the hose routing.

DA hit the nail on the head. There are not very many of us who dive vintage gear (in a "modern" configuration or otherwise). The NAVED has under 200 members, so we are a small but dedicated lot of folks. I guess my point it, despite all the comments that you have made, you have not once mentioned what your device does that the phoenix does not do. The phoenix allows for multiple hose routing configurations. The phoenix allows for people on charters (U.S. or abroad) to dive within "safe diving" practices and to satisfy boat captains. The phoenix allows you to use a backpack, a DIN adapter, and to do everything else you mentioned. I understand that your design is an entirely new body, while the phoenix is a nozzle inserted into a stock body. I just wish you would nail down why your design is better or different. I'm not trying to railroad you man, but for all the effort you invested you could have made something that the community as a whole needed. As an example, when I saw that a lot of us wanted to rebuild our vintage U.S. Divers single hose regulators, but we did not have parts, I researched, prototyped, and tested parts for single hose regulators. This fills a niche that was not filled. Duplication of effort in a community that is tiny is fruitless.

 

[oldmossback]

Photos of this new design are posted on Vintage Scuba Supply, along with Dan Barrangers comments......and in a week or so the comments of another diver who I asked to evaluate this will be published.

The Mk3 is just an expermental unit for my purposes for a much larger project. I decided to produce a few to sell for those who wanted 5 useable fixed hose routings........shorter in length for DIN

This unit has 4 useable LP ports, this means all can be used at the same time for various requirements. Plus one HP port. I believe the Phoenix only has 3 LPs and also 3 HP ports.........and not all can be used at the same time.

The length of the Phoenix precludes its use with DIN, per Louis Hero's own words. The reg would push too deep into the divers back for comfort. The Mk3 can be used with a DIN and is in fact short enough to use between a standard hard backpac found on many bc's and the tank valve..........which means a diver can wear the tank low.

The Mk3 is more expensive by 65 dollars or so, for this is a big piece of brass, but the other apointments and slight advantages, I feel should off set the cost. This is called market competition.

Does the Phoenix have the market share of vintage and doublehose divers filled?.....depends on who you talk to......NAVED, which I am a non-active member, is not the only group of divers interested in this technology.......in my area alone I have 3 LDS owners interested in the Mk 3 and that equates eventually to their customers. This thing will spread because people today see this as new......Because this solves not only the same problem that the Phoenix did, along with solving the problems not so well handled by the Phoenix, but has a more modern look to the cans.....which most new divers will only drive to.

This is one of the reasons the DH crowd is small. The equipment looks old, even with the Phoenix attached...and the sport diving crowd perfers gear that looks fresh, new and modern. But at the same time logical looking.......that is one of many reasons the new Mistral failed.....it made no sense in looks or function for that matter.

And that my friend is what this is about..........I posted here due to this forums access by the brother divers in the UK, European countries, Australia and Canada and elsewhere......these are the folks I want to interest. Y'all across the sea or up north can now dive your DH regs anyway you chose.

I expected a whole lot of critics who are enamored with and support the Phoenix.
This is fine and ok with me..........just understand my goal is to provide a modern, conventional doublehose regulator for the 21st century. And the Mk3 1st stage body is the first big step in this process.

 

[halocline]

I expected a whole lot of critics who are enamored with and support the Phoenix.
This is fine and ok with me..........just understand my goal is to provide a modern, conventional doublehose regulator for the 21st century. And the Mk3 1st stage body is the first big step in this process.

Excuse me, but I don't think anyone was criticizing you or your project, just asking very reasonable questions in a polite manner.

 

[Gilldiver]

OK, I just took a look on VSS and saw the photos, it would have been much easier if you had just told us where they were or posted them here.

The concept looks good, the only thing I don't like about it is the route of the BC LP inflator. Right now the port is at 11 O'clock as viewed from behind, and sends the hose up and through the breathing hose loop. I just don't like hoses that go above my head. Would the design allow for a reposition of the port to 9 o'clock so that the Lp hose comes out at the shoulder and can be bunggied to the BC inflator?

The main problem with the PRAM is clocking, which you solve by replacing the body, and avalibility. The production costs are such that Bryan just can't make all that many at one time. Your buisness plan will need to look at up front tooling and invintory costs vs sale price and ROI.

Good luck.

 

[Gilldiver]

I would also like to know just how far from the tank valve your design is. In this photo you see the nozzle with a yoke and using the Aqualung Din adapter. The distance with the nozzle/Yoke is 1.75" and with the DIN converter is 2.75". As you are using the same Aqualung yoke as the nozzle, you should also see the same 1" increase in spacing when using the reg as a DIN, but hwat is your base distance as a yoke?