Underwater panic.

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It has always been while the student was performing a simple skill that they had performed many times without problem.

I think that this is a contributing factor, in my case I had never previously panicked underwater (or for that matter anywhere I remember). I watched other people experience it in my open water class in the pool and in one case at the open water checkout dives.
Perhaps the problem was as much not experiencing any significant problems on prior dives as it was the specific problem experienced on this dive.

was able to controle her speed but there was no force on earth that could get her to take a reg

This is an interesting point and thinking back, it's true that I my reluctance to relinquish my "non functional" reg certainly didn't help the situation.

I was thinking again shortly after I started the ascent, I remember thinking that I should be able to breath from the free flow and trying to do so on the ascent. Although controlled isn't a word I would have used to describe it, the latter portion of it wasn't a panicked swim.

FWIW I think that a student/teacher relationship was only present by implication. I've dove with UP pretty much weekly for the last couple of months, and I don't think he had any reason to believe I was about to panic when I did. And quite honestly there probably wasn't much he could have done to stop me surfacing once it happened.

I take full responsibility for the incident, UP was right there trying to help me, but as I said before he isn't a mind reader.

I've said before this wasn't a risky dive, the water was calm, minimal current, the "dive plan" was to stay shallow and practice with the equipment and that's what we did. In a pool we would have been shallower, and the situation may never have arissen but I'm not sure how much safer I would have been in the same situation.

What bit me was two fold, firstly it was an unfamiliarity with the configuration, going over the equipmemt on the surface (which we did extensively prior to the dive) I hadn't even considered what would happen wrapping the hose incorrectly, and I doubt UP considered it happening. This coupled with me unnecessarilly removing my backup reg prior to wrapping the primary into place when the incident occured.

In retrospect (and hindsight is 20/20 as they say) before running OOA drills we should have spent more time practicing just swapping to the backup. I needed to "learn" where it was, probably not something that is obvious to someone used to diving with the configuration. On the subsequent dive this is exactly what we did.

The second was a lack of familiarity with the specific equipment which prevented me from easilly purging the reg. This was pure stupidity on my part, I assumed that it was the same as my reg (hey all the rentals I've dove have been). I even purged it on the surface to check the air flow prior to the dive, I just didn't look at it closely.

I'm sure UP will chiome in here with his version of what happened and what he would do differently if anything. Although I think he's off diving in Canada for the next couple of days.
 
ERP once bubbled...
This is an interesting point and thinking back, it's true that I my reluctance to relinquish my "non functional" reg certainly didn't help the situation.
This is interesting, because you stated earlier that the reg went into free flow - as it is very difficult to put your mouth around a regulator when it is free flowing (if not dangerous) at some point the regulator came out of your mouth. At this point my primary would be in your mouth - purged and just waiting for you to inhale. I would never have been trying to re-orient your free-flowing regulator and I wouldn't dare attempt to take your regulator out of your hand - this is definitely a bad idea, under the cirumstances.

Once you were breathing normally again (and had cleared the mask that was likely nearly blown off your face by the free-flow) then and only then would I request from a cognitive ERP that he give me the regulator to correct the problem.
 
This is interesting, because you stated earlier that the reg went into free flow - as it is very difficult to put your mouth around a regulator when it is free flowing (if not dangerous) at some point the regulator came out of your mouth. At this point my primary would be in your mouth - purged and just waiting for you to inhale. I would never have been trying to re-orient your free-flowing regulator and I wouldn't dare attempt to take your regulator out of your hand - this is definitely a bad idea, under the cirumstances.

Trust me the regulator came out of my mouth when I spat it out at the surface.
I don't know if I was holding it in with my hand (probably) or if I had bitten down on part of the mouthpiece to keep it there, bubbles were certainly escaping around the edges and through the exhaust tee, and I wasn't in any danger from the freeflow itself.
 
I'm not off to Canada just yet... packing today... leaving tomorrow morning.

DB... there are elements missing from the story... but I certainly don't mind your critique even without all the facts. That is the way we learn... but I probably should give a few more of the pertinent details. I will try to stay with this thread so if you have any questions ask them.

I do carry responsibility here... not as instructor with student... but as a mentor developing a new buddy that I would feel comfortable diving with.

1. Confined water vs. open water. ERP is certified PADI AOW. He should be (according to PADI) competent to dive to 100'. Our dives together working on buoyancy control and trim have all been at the same benign OW dive site. No need to go to a pool IMO to try out a BP/wing and long hoses.

2. Positioning... I was facing ERP and had my primary regulator extended to him. As soon as I attempted to correct his situation he bolted. You might have been able to wrestle the free flowing reg from in front of his face and cram your reg into his mouth... but I couldn't.
 
But it would have been safer if ERP had infact worked on using the long hose and how to orient the regulator, how to purge the regulator, how to stop a free flow, etc in shallow water first. Then he would have already practiced re-wrapping the long hose with proper orientation and been familiar with how to replace it after practicing the OOA emergency drills. Finally, the best part is ERP would be in a pool where in the worst case scenario he's only 10 feet or so away from the surface when he discovers what happens in a multiple-point-of-failure scenario.

From depth in OW, we can all agree a lot more things could have gone wrong - though we are all glad nothing worse did happen. I recommend (and so does PADI) that you try out new configurations, new equipment, and new diving methods in a shallow controlled environment before you go into the open ocean.

I have to agree though with your apparent stab at AOW Uncle, because as ERP has already pointed out there were like 4 other contingencies that he didn't take advantage of, but should have. All I can say about that is interesting...
 
DiverBuoy once bubbled...
But it would have been safer if ERP had infact worked on using the long hose and how to orient the regulator, how to purge the regulator, how to stop a free flow, etc in shallow water first.


I have to agree though with your apparent stab at AOW Uncle, because as ERP has already pointed out there were like 4 other contingencies that he didn't take advantage of, but should have. All I can say about that is interesting...
1) We did work on donating the long hose, rewrapping the long hose, switching back and forth between the primary and bungeed second (but not purging and stopping a freeflow... which is OW stuff) both in the parking lot... standing in the water... and several times in shallow water. And ERP did just fine.
At what point do you figure a fellow is good for OW?

2) That wasn't a stab at PADI AOW... that was just a statement of fact. And it isn't a stab at ERP either... he is really turning out to be a great buddy... and it is a bummer that he is moving!!! The point is that if PADI does such a good job of training folks then why should I need to take a PADI AOW certified diver to a pool to try out a new piece of gear? Ya know.... come to think of it that might really be the prudent thing to do. :D
 
If I have never used a particular type of equipment, I would give it a dry run on land and then in a pool. Once... for a reel, but not for every reel. I did it several times for a reg... and I don't think I need a dry or pool run for a reg. I can probably figure out which part goes in my mouth, etc, etc.

Dis-orientation can happen to anyone at any time. Yes, this means YOU! Panic under the grips of dis-orientation is quite common. Too many inputs (whatever they may be) or the squid you ate for lunch is getting kinda gamey in your stomach, or the light gets weird, or WHATEVER. If you could see it coming it wouldn't be quite so confusing, and you would never panic. But you NEVER see it coming, so it surprises you when you least suspect it. Will it happen again? Maybe. Can you steel yourself to never ever freak underwater? Maybe. Dr Paul was my wake up call... no reasons can be given for what happened to him.

IOW, blame needs not always be assigned. Knowing the Pugster, I am sure some SERIOUS soul searching occured after the incident. He knows if he should have done something different. I would trust Pug with my last bottle of air.
 
NetDoc once bubbled...
IOW, blame needs not always be assigned. Knowing the Pugster, I am sure some SERIOUS soul searching occured after the incident. He knows if he should have done something different. I would trust Pug with my last bottle of air.
However I must admit that I wasn't too concerned when ERP did his CESA... he describes it as panic and I won't second guess him on his state of mind... but he really did ascend under control. As he himself related to me... this one was much slower than the one he did for his OW cert. :D
 
I'm sure your right. That Uncle did some reflection he even posted earlier ... he feels he shares some of the responsibility. The point of trying out new unfamiliar equipment in a pool is good advice no matter what. If the equipment is really new (like off the shelf) it will reveal any kinks, problems, mfg glitches etc.

As for the training ERP has, I can't vouch for a particular instructor. But in reflection ERP has remembered all the things he didn't take advantage of, including Uncle's immediately available stand-by assistance. This recount of what he could have done proves his training was there in some degree. But in his panicked state he simply didn't perform what he was trained to do. Had there been only one thing wrong rather than flooded mask, upside down wet regulator, free flowing regulator, and new equipment (a purge valve he couldn't work and mis-wrapped hose)... some of that training might have kicked in. Once an individual goes into panic the brain says go to the surface NOW! I'm glad he ascended slowly and properly enough to avoid trouble.

I think the story is a fantastic example of how things ultimately go wrong - despite training. As you put it, it can happen to absolutely any one of us, and it will strike when you least expect it. How would any of us react ... let's hope we aren't all tested like ERP was. But to the extent we can meditate on the same scenario and imagine our responses ... ERP has furnished us a glimpse. From some similiar scenarios ... divers weren't around afterward to tell us their story and offer us an opportunity to discuss what they would have done differently.
 
What jumps out at me as a contributing factor is task overload as a result of too many changes.
I'm not sure how many dives ERP has logged with the same gear in the same configuration, I'm guessing quite a few. To suddenly change equipment and configuration from the well known, is like breaking a bad habit. Like taking a driver whose only driven standard shift and not only putting him in an automatic shift, but putting him in a different country, driving on the opposite side of the road and moving controls such as the turn signal lever to the opposite side. Probably won't be long before something happens.

If he'd had his own well known regs with a longer hose added, it might have been completely different. I can certainly grasp and purge my own regs a lot faster than a buddy's different brand octo. It's part of the reason why wife and I dive with the same type regs and our octo's are the same as our primaries.

The only solution to this will be more diving. :)
 

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