Undergarment question... wool or no?

[PerroneFord]

Yea, it's in the DIR forum, but your reply was pretty good. Hopefully, we are mature enough to have this discussion here and not raise any flames. I was trying to remember the source of the DIR info, but I think it was "Dress for Success" but my copy is at home so I can't verify it.

My goal is not to refute what's in the book, but to simply discuss that information in the light of progress.

RTodd's comment confuses me somewhat as you can't wear thinsulate directly against the skin. I don't know what material DUI uses on the inside of the 400g and similar undergarment. So I suppose the question is how that material constrasts with the merino wool of something like the Pinnacle. Both have thinsulate insulation. As I said, I have no intention of giving up my thinsulate undergarment to go with wool, I am just interested in the wicking layer.

 

[JeffG]

Sorry, I didn't realize this was in the DIR forum... Feel free to remove my previous post.

No need.

Personally, I think that if someone put their mind to it, a better weave/material could very well exist for drysuit divers. The problem is that the market is pretty small and so we typically ride on the back of either industry or another sport.

 

[amascuba]

I actually use a Polyester long john that I got from Gander Mountain for my base layer. It works great. It's that time of the year again when they will have them out for hunters and the such. Check out the hunting/sporting good stores and see what you find.

 

[lamont]

I do think polypro is a good thing. i was doing dives where i started getting chilled at the end and switched away from cotton to polypro and it made a difference (without adding lead), so i'm a believer. previously i had assumed the same thing that your drysuit would turn into a swamp no matter what and it didn't matter what you had next to your skin, but without better scientific evidence my own experimentation contradicted that and suggested that polypro/synthetics have some kind of an effect.

i also wear the new hi-tech wool socks instead of shelling out for 400g thinsulate socks, and they seem to work fine, but my feet don't tend to bug me at all when they're cold anyway though, so i don't know if i'd notice a difference... and while i've gotten them flooded many times i don't know how they compare to thinsulate for flood-resistance...

 

[crlavoie]

I do think polypro is a good thing. i was doing dives where i started getting chilled at the end and switched away from cotton to polypro and it made a difference (without adding lead), so i'm a believer. previously i had assumed the same thing that your drysuit would turn into a swamp no matter what and it didn't matter what you had next to your skin, but without better scientific evidence my own experimentation contradicted that and suggested that polypro/synthetics have some kind of an effect.

i also wear the new hi-tech wool socks instead of shelling out for 400g thinsulate socks, and they seem to work fine, but my feet don't tend to bug me at all when they're cold anyway though, so i don't know if i'd notice a difference... and while i've gotten them flooded many times i don't know how they compare to thinsulate for flood-resistance...

Yeah, don't get me wrong. I use synthetics and they do work. The problem is that most folks buy into the hype without understanding the problem. In mountaineering applications, it allows me a greater range of comfort through varying work loads without having to regulate ventilation or layers while on the go (most of the time). In DS diving, it works as far as keeping the moisure at bay for "long enough" but then my exposure times are generally pretty short.

It's all a balance, I suppose.

BTW, a while back, the founder of Stephenson's tents had tons of documentation on their web site. I just checked and it seems to be gone. Most of it was based on research conducted by the army and air force if I recall correctly. Anyway, the science behind this stuff is mind boggling to say the least. It gets WAY beyond the basics that we've all heard from the like of Patagonia, North Face etc. Interesting reading but you REALLY need to have some time on your hands.

 

[CompuDude]

Perrone, I think the answer is keep the synthetics against your skin, but if you want to substitute wool for synthetics on the insulating layer, that may be an option worth testing, at least.

There was a thready recently discussing diving in Scandinavia and other *really* cold water countries, where they use wool undergarments (layers of thin merino) and laugh at us for using synthetics. Link1 Link2

I think wool's lack of wicking is still a reason to avoid it against your skin, because you are interfering with normal wicking needs on a dive where things stay flood-free. In the event of a flood, the wool or thinsulate should keep you warm (as possible) even with the wicking layer in place.

I'm not aware of a DIR-specific answer to this particular topic, so I don't see why this would not be fair game for reasonable discussion.

My cold water needs are not that extreme, so I'm comfortable with a good synthetic wicking layer (Capilene) and a DUI PowerStretch, but I wear wool-based Thor-Lo's on my feet.

 

[PerroneFord]

I think it's only a "DIR" thing insofar as what I read. But I tend to agree. I think I will pick up some of the wool undergarments and do a back to back against the underarmour cold gear and see if I notice any difference. It won't be scientific, but should give some idea about how well it wicks.

I'll leave the thinsulate replacement experiments to those more brave than me. I absolutely HATE being cold, but I don't get cold easily so I've learned.

Thanks to all for the excellent discussion thus far.

 

[rjack321]

I have worn smartwool socks for years, and now their long undies for a year. I have had a couple of leaks in this time and both have adequately dispersed (away from my skin) what water got into my suit. I'm satisfied with both and they seem to work just as well as my polyester/polypropylene based undies which I still use too. No matter what its a high humidity environment inside a drysuit.

 

[RTodd]

I have worn smartwool socks for years, and now their long undies for a year. I have had a couple of leaks in this time and both have adequately dispersed (away from my skin) what water got into my suit. I'm satisfied with both and they seem to work just as well as my polyester/polypropylene based undies which I still use too. No matter what its a high humidity environment inside a drysuit.

You guys are really missing the point here. Most of the new stuff wicks water away from your skin fairly well. What you need is something that continues to provide warmth once the suit is completely flooded. Thinsulate is way better at doing this. I often wear some form of poly underneath it too to keep the smell down on the thinsulate. But, if it is a dive where warmth will be an issue if I flood the suit completely due to the time it will take to get out of the water, I layer over the thinsulate instead. Once the other synthetic stuff is soaked it tends to work against you warmth wise more than just wearing the g400.

For those of you that want tests there are some older navy studies out there. I don't have them but have seen them. They show that the onlything warmer that g400 is heated g400.

 

[PerroneFord]

I hear you RTodd. But to make sure I am not losing something in translation, I am going to restate your opinion as I am hearing it... and you can correct me if I am mistaken.

You are stating that in a scenario where warmth is crucial in a flood, such as a deep, cold water dive with a significant hang in front of you, that wearing the thinsulate undergarment with nothing under it, is ideal. And wearing polypro underneath that garment is LESS effective. You also seem to be saying that you feel that wearing a merino wool layer underneath the undergarment would at best provide no additional warmth, and at worst, could render the thinsulate undergarment less effective.

Is this a fair synopsis of your opinion?