Ultima Dry Glove System question

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I agree.

I'm building a new workbench - and I'll have a round circle of wood permanently bolted to it - just small enough to fit inside an Ultima glove-side ring.

Using that and a pair of 720s, I can install a glove in seconds, pain-free, by myself.

I may offer it as a service to y'all if you're interested and/or you find it too much of a PITA to build your own jig. You'd send me your gloveside rings, and I'd sell and install a set of 720s to you for a nominal fee... Maybe glove + $10 each or something.

Thoughts?
 
Regarding the black gloves in the video; I did a bit of digging in my email and found that they are rubber gloves. I used to be able to get them at $12.95 a pair from DRIS, but now they only sell a higher end version at $31.95 a pair.

5 Finger Rubber Gloves Long

The pro's of these gloves is I find the fingers are a better fit/more natural for my hands, and they work a bit like magic... I was introduced to them on a prior trip where my wifes Si-Tech Antares system would leak every dive, and someone on the trip had these as backup. These gloves where able fit over the hard Si-Tech oval that is attached to the drysuit (no longer needing the dual o-ring plastic parts that normally attach to that). And then once the gloves were on, you put a pull-over glove o-ring over the top of the glove (over the glove where it attaches to the hard oval on the suit) and you were good to go.

Glove Retention Ring


The only problem with this was my wife needed help putting her gloves on for each dive. But they never leaked and fit well, so it was worth the hassle. The cool thing about the Ulitma system is that these install on their regular system, but in seconds with no tools needed as you are allowed to put the o-ring on the outside of the glove. Technically, you don't even need to install them on the system (like the Antares); as they could go directly over the hard ring on the drysuit; but then you would need an assistant to help you put the glove on and off.

My last trip I had so much trouble installing the 620's (because I forgot how to use my jig); that when I got a small leak in one of my gloves I dove my last 6 dives with one black glove (rubber) and one orange glove (620). This worked fine, and I didn't notice too much difference between the two gloves, other than I felt like I had a bit more dexterity with the 620's (working with the camera, etc). Also, the black gloves are super long, so that would solve MaxBottomTime's issue regarding length (that appears to no longer be a problem with his 720's).

I think the main reason I shy away from the black gloves is the cost. They are exponentially more expensive than the Showa's, but that said we've never had a leak in a black glove; but that could also be due to the fact that we don't dive them often. I always bring them on my trip's though, because as long as someone has a hard ring on their drysuit they will work in any system with relative ease.
 
The April trip to God's Pocket was my first trip with the 720s. They worked perfectly and I haven't had a leak since I began using them. My zipper broke with two days left on the trip so I dived with a gallon of water down my legs but it was manageable.

I always liked the PVC gloves with the thick lining but the sleeves of my suits are too short and the gloves would pop off at the worst times. I tried a few 14" gloves but they had seams inside that kept them from seating completely against the ring, allowing water to creep in. The 720s stretch just enough to not pull away from my sleeves and are easier to install over the glove ring than the PVC gloves.
 
Great review Insomniac! Really gets us another perspective on another potentially great glove.

I've seen these gloves before but never dived them. I've done some research into what they're made of, but haven't ever been able to establish their exact composition since the term "rubber" is somewhat ubiquitous and refers to practically any kind of polymer (latex, nitrile, PVC, PU, etc).

My gut says they're latex-based since the company that makes them appears to heavily invested in latex production. One reviewer even mentioned that they can be repaired with a bicycle inner tube tire patch kit, which supports the notion that they're latex. It's possible that they're even 100% latex, and are probably not a true natural rubber coming from a rubber tree. If that's the case, then I expect them to wear not quite as well as PVC gloves like the 620 and 660, and to get "gooey" over time like a latex wrist seal does... But even while they're intact, to not offer the same puncture and abrasion resistance that the nitrile 720s or even the PVC gloves like the 620 and 660 offer.

The fact that the ring can seal against the inside of the glove tells me that the glove must be of the unlined variety... Meaning that it'd be cold and clammy without glove liners. Therefore, glove liners are kinda a prerequisite for use, which adds to the thickness of the glove and reduces dexterity. One of the advantages to the 620s, 660s, and 720s is that they have a low-pile fabric liner that makes going undergloveless quite comfortable, adding to dexterity and tactile feel if the water's not too cold. The 620s and 660s are both cotton-lined (think "T-shirt") while the 720s are lined with an acrylic material (think "wicking T-shirt"). The acrylic liner of the 720s does a nice job of wicking sweat, staying clean, and drying fast without giving a cold, clammy feel of an unlined glove. See the long video I posted above where I show the clean, white glove lining inside the 720s.

FWIW, the SHOWA 460 is essentially a 620 with a "fuzzy" insulated liner, although they may not work for everyone since it has a rather short cuff... And the "fuzzy" liners can sometimes cause leaking issues with the gloveside rings on dryglove rings. There's also a seam at the base of the glove, which complicates installation and reduces stretch... And if a "fuzzy" glove gets wet, it takes forever to dry. I generally don't recommend "fuzzy lined" gloves in general... But I digress...

Another reviewer mentioned that "rubber" gloves you're talking about were slippery and thick, offering little in terms of grip and dexterity. You mentioned that you felt little difference between them and the 620s, even when dived side-by-side... Which tells me that if there's a problem with grip and thickness, it can't be too bad. The thickness has an advantage, by the way, in terms of helping to improve durability - so it's not wholly a disadvantage.

...But the fact that they can be used without the glove rings (eg in an emergency) and/or installed "the easy way" with the inside of the glove sealing - makes them unique and I imagine in some cases the best choice.

At any rate - I really hope you'll get a set of the 720s and compare them to the gloves you have. I suspect you'll find them to be stretchy like latex gloves (unlike PVC 620s and 660s) while offering you more toughness and durability than any glove you have reviewed here thus far. They also stay cleaner and are naturally warmer than the gloves you've mentioned, which may promote you to go undergloveless... Which always increases dexterity and tactile feel. They DO require a seal against the OUTSIDE of the glove since there is a low-pile liner in them (like the 620s and 660s), but their additional stretch makes them a LOT easier to stretch onto the ring. Don't be fooled by their thinner, stretchier material - they're more durable than the 620s and 660s. Nitrile is simply a tougher material than PVC.

Standing by for your review... Something tells me that if you're accustomed to an underglove, a PVC glove, and then in some cases a "rubber" glove over that, you're going to find these 720s amazingly liberating and natural-feeling. :-)
 
One more thing: I wanted to touch base on the subject of undergloves again - or what the industry calls "glove liners," which is terminology that I tend to discourage, since it can be confused with the actual glove lining that is already permanently inside the glove.

You mentioned that you're using a Fourth Element G2, which has been the top dog of undergloves - in my opinion, anyway - for years. The G2s are actually blown and compressed 1 mm neoprene (like wetsuit material, for those of you unfamiliar), and they're great - especially if you flood a glove.

...But their new Xerotherm glove is even thinner and warmer. I haven't compared a flooded Xerotherm to a flooded G2 - I suspect that the G2 would win - but dry, the Xerotherm is warmer and more comfortable. If you have a FourthE Xereotherm undergarment, you're already familiar with the fabric: It's the same stuff, only thinner.

Here's a video of the G2 vs. the new Xerotherm underglove:
The fact that I haven't experienced a glove flood in order to test the G2 vs the Xerotherm undergloves says a lot regarding the Ultima rings with the 720s attached... Especially since I use a chainsaw underwater and scrape oysters and barnacles. Tough stuff, really. :)

Before you go out and buy a set of Xerotherm undergloves, though, try the 720s without any underglove at all. Alone, they're much warmer than PVC or latex in the first place, and you may find yourself going undergloveless a lot more than you're used to.
 
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Maxbottomtime, I hope you'll send your suit out for zipper repair to DRIS. They rock.

...And while my opinion may not be common, I have found the YKK plastic zipper to be the (surprisingly) best choice out there. Soft, flat, flexible, and practically maintenance-free, I have had no problems whatsoever with mine, despite being used in some pretty harsh conditions. I have the YKK plastic zipper on two of my drysuits, and between the two of them probably 700 dives.

By comparison, my brass zippers were cleaned and waxed every 3-5 dives, and always failed after a hundred dives or so. All it took was one bent tine and the whole zipper was toast... Which wasn't hard to do, since the edges of the zipper tended to fray and cause snag points.

...That, aside from the fact that I find metal zippers stiff and obtrusive compared to the flat plastic ones, and I'll never go back to a metal zipper.

FWIW, I had no problems with my TiZip-equipped drysuits either... But DRIS discourages them and encourages the nearly identical YKK plastic zipper instead due to warranty concerns... So that's what I have.

Either way, I'm a big proponent of plastic zips. Won't dive a suit without one.
 
I agree that I shouldn't have called my inner gloves "glove liners" as that was misleading. I put that video together last night at like 1AM with no script so I may have mixed up some terms!

In regards to my dexterity comments, I should preface that with my bar being very low when it comes to dexterity... The cold water diving I do is typically 40-45F (4.5-7.5C), and my hands are very sensitive to being cold and/or wet (I get seasonal eczema). So I always wear inner gloves. When I dove with the Si-Tech Antares system the majority of my dives had full floods to at least one glove; so I was very accustomed to soaking wet G1's for my week of diving (I wear the silicone wrist seals, so although it doesn't stop the water from creeping up my arm it limits it pretty good). It wasn't till I got a cheap pair of wool gloves provided by waterproof that I discovered a soaking wet wool glove was exponentially warmer than a soaking wet G1. After that I rarely used my G1's as I realized just how bad they really were compared to a slightly bulkier (soaking wet) wool glove.

On my last trip, I ended up diving the majority of the trip with a wool glove on my left hand the the G1 on my right. I mainly operate my camera with my right hand so having a slightly slimmer G1 helped with dexterity, but boy did I realize how much warmer my hand was with the wool glove when wearing them side by side like that. Here's a link to my wool glove I used (they are super bulky and itchy but my hand was actually warm for the first time ever).

100% Boiled Wool Neon Gloves by Dachstein Woolwear from Austria | eBay

It's also relatively difficult to dry stuff where I typically dive, and I found the wool gloves dry a lot better than the G1's did as well. Even though my new system rarely leaks, I find it hard to not touch wet stuff with my dry gloves off and my inner gloves on (they always seem to find a way to get at least somewhat wet). But that said, the wool gloves can be soaking wet and still provide more warmth than you would expect. I had always assumed that the G1's, being made out of wetsuit material, would be warmer when wet; but I think they are too thin to really work that well / warm up enough in cold water.

All that to say, it sounds like the 720 / Xerotherm will be a perfect combination (I'm not sure if the 720's existed two-three years ago when I bought most my gear, but I know the Xerotherm's are relatively new as I hadn't seen them before this thread). I have a trip planned for Sept. and I am gonna buy all this stuff before than; so I'll be able to report back my opinion here after the trip.

Finally, regarding my "rubber" (pull-over) gloves; they are indeed Latex. They work pretty dang well, but if given the choice I would pick the 620 (and thus assuming the 720). In regards to your digression, I avoid the 460 at all costs. Those things are a nightmare. When a little moisture get's in that built in liner they never dry, and they are like the worst of both worlds. You would be much better off with getting the kit with the cheap yellow removable liners than the ones where they are built in.
 
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I agree that I shouldn't have called my inner gloves "glove liners" as that was misleading. I put that video together last night at like 1AM with no script so I may have mixed up some terms!

Oh, I wasn't criticizing you, my friend... The whole industry calls them that. It can get confusing.

I like the term "undergloves" better and agree with you. :-)

In regards to my dexterity comments, I should preface that with my bar being very low when it comes to dexterity... The cold water diving I do is typically 40-45F (4.5-7.5C), and my hands are very sensitive to being cold and/or wet (I get seasonal eczema). So I always wear inner gloves. When I dove with the Si-Tech Antares system the majority of my dives had full floods to at least one glove; so I was very accustomed to soaking wet G1's for my week of diving (I wear the silicone wrist seals, so although it doesn't stop the water from creeping up my arm it limits it pretty good). It wasn't till I got a cheap pair of wool gloves provided by waterproof that I discovered a soaking wet wool glove was exponentially warmer than a soaking wet G1. After that I rarely used my G1's as I realized just how bad they really were compared to a slightly bulkier (soaking wet) wool glove.

Oh my lawd... :-) I don't know how you've dealt with this. It drove me nuts when I was consistently wet after having spent all that time and money... :-/

Ultimas with 720s... No more cold, wet hands, with or without undergloves... 'Cause the 720s are a lot warmer than any unlined latex glove, even if you don't wear an underglove at all. My bet is that you'll come to trust them so much that you'll trim back your wrist seals too, if they're not keeping you dry anyway.

On my last trip, I ended up diving the majority of the trip with a wool glove on my left hand the the G1 on my right. I mainly operate my camera with my right hand so having a slightly slimmer G1 helped with dexterity, but boy did I realize how much warmer my hand was with the wool glove when wearing them side by side like that. Here's a link to my wool glove I used (they are super bulky and itchy but my hand was actually warm for the first time ever).

100% Boiled Wool Neon Gloves by Dachstein Woolwear from Austria | eBay

Good stuff! Another contender for undergloves! Thank you for sharing. Those look super simple and very warm.

Having said that - you sound very much like you're going to love the Fourth Element Xerotherm undergloves. Probably very similar to the wool ones, but thinner, stretchier, and less bulky than the wool ones... Probably a lot less itchy, too. I hope you'll do a review of both, side-by-side.

I can't wait to read your reviews!

You're right about both the 720s and the Xerotherms... They're both pretty new, having come out only last year or so. They weren't available two or three years ago.

I find it hard to not touch wet stuff with my dry gloves off and my inner gloves on (they always seem to find a way to get at least somewhat wet).

Same here, which is one reason why I like not using an underglove at all... Which isn't realistic in a latex glove or even a PVC glove... But definitely is in a nitrile glove like the 720.

I don't use undergloves until the water goes below 40 degrees or so. YMMV.

Of interest, I find myself taking my drygloves off a lot less if they're not bulky and obtrusive. I find that I tend to leave them on all the time if I can still adjust and spit in my mask, operate a harness buckle, and tuck a hood into a warm neck collar with the gloves on. Hence - my hands stay drier. So inadvertently - the 720s end up keeping my hands drier because I can leave them on and still get the tactile feel and dexterity through them.

...And drier is warmer. :-)

I have a trip planned for Sept. and I am gonna buy all this stuff before than; so I'll be able to report back my opinion here after the trip.

Call SHOWA directly and order "samples" of the 720 glove. They'll send you a few for free, no questions asked. You'll find their contact info here: Contact

Unfortunately, I don't know where you can get free Fourth E Xerotherm undergloves... But DRIS sells them affordably. :-)

Finally, regarding my "rubber" (pull-over) gloves; they are indeed Latex. They work pretty dang well, but if given the choice I would pick the 620 (and thus assuming the 720). In regards to your digression, I avoid the 460 at all costs. Those things are a nightmare. When a little moisture get's in that built in liner they never dry, and they are like the worst of both worlds. You would be much better off with getting the kit with the cheap yellow removable liners than the ones where they are built in.

Sounds like you and I have had the same experiences and have the same opinions. :-)

I can't wait to read your review of the 720s. My bet is that you won't want to dive anything else. :-)
 
There are Ebay sellers with the 720s under $5 shipped. I picked up a few extra pairs at the fishing supply store when was in Port Hardy.
Tim, are you and Christa returning to God's Pocket in September? Merry and I are trying to change our August trip.
 

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