Two divers die at Wazee Lake, WI

[ndboi]

I guess my question would be, "What would be the wise thing to do if your buddy has a heart attack at 200' ?" Would the proper response be to do a controlled assent, even if he was unconscious, and deal with the heart attack and oxygen deprivation at the surface? Not to seem insensitive and actually more ignorance as I haven't completed my rescue training yet but it would seem to me that 2 divers in trouble is worse than 1. Also, what good is a rescuer if he/she becomes a victim during the rescue.

At 200' , is their a safe response to a buddy having a heart attack? If their is no safe response available and death is eminent to both divers should a rapid assent be attempted? Is "no response" a viable option. I sort of see this as running into a building engulfed in flames to save someone, assuming that firemen have already called off all rescue attempts.

How would someone consciously make the decision to abort a rescue attempt at 200+ (presumably of a friend) for fear of their own certain demise.

If death due to a rapid decent from 200+ is not eminent than my question is moot.

 

[Rick Murchison]

I guess my question would be, "What would be the wise thing to do if your buddy has a heart attack at 200' ?"

Follow your plan.
Let's plan it now.
The first question to be answered is "Do we want to be able to bring an injured diver directly to the surface who needs it to (possibly) survive?"
If the answer is "no" then don't do it if it will put you at serious risk of DCS. I call this the "screw you" dive plan.
If the answer is "yes" then let's look at what's needed, depending on the rest of the dive plan.
A bare minimum support team for any dive with a decompression obligation is someone on the surface who can administer first aid and pass gas back into the water should the need arise. Minimum equipment on the surface is extra gas, a standard first aid kit and enough oxygen to get a victim to the nearest emergency care facility. If you don't have those, don't go into deco in the first place.
For a dive to 200', depending on planned bottom time, you may need to add additional support diver(s) and equipment. At 200' it doesn't take very long on the bottom to need *lots* of support. If you read the minimum requirements for such dives from folks who do them professionally - Navies, NOAA, etc., you'll likely be surprised at how quickly you get into "recompression chamber on site" as a required piece of safety equipment.
In general, if an injured diver needs to surface to survive...
I will always blow off any "safety stop".
I will use a 50 - 60 fpm ascent rate, maybe even push that a little.
If we are not using a support diver in the water, I will bring the injured diver to the surface and turn him over to the topside support, then pick up my planned "emergency surface deco schedule." That may be "get out of the water and breathe oxygen until my deco bottle's dry" or in may be to descend and pick up a planned schedule in the water. If we are using a support diver then I'll hand the injured diver off and do my deco schedule as planned.
Under any circumstances, it's the *plan* that matters.
Planning how to handle an incapacitated buddy must be a part of *any* dive plan, even the simplest recreational reef sightseeing dive - even if it is the "screw you" plan, you need one that you and your buddy (dive team) agree to in advance.
Plan.
Plan.
Plan.
Rick

 

[DandyDon]

I guess my question would be, "What would be the wise thing to do if your buddy has a heart attack at 200' ?" Would the proper response be to do a controlled assent, even if he was unconscious, and deal with the heart attack and oxygen deprivation at the surface? Not to seem insensitive and actually more ignorance as I haven't completed my rescue training yet but it would seem to me that 2 divers in trouble is worse than 1. Also, what good is a rescuer if he/she becomes a victim during the rescue.

Based on the scant and mixed info we have for this accident, (this is certainly a speculation) it kinda sounds like one of the two deeper divers had a some problem below, the other reacted with a rapid ascent and died trying. Brings back memories of this discussion where it seems that one diver sent the other up alone so he could do a safe ascent. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/336774-diver-dies-lake-huron-dunderberg.html

Keep in mind that we do not have all the facts on either accident and this is at best a learning opportunity for us based on very limited and maybe confused info.

At 200' , is their a safe response to a buddy having a heart attack? If their is no safe response available and death is eminent to both divers should a rapid assent be attempted? Is "no response" a viable option. I sort of see this as running into a building engulfed in flames to save someone, assuming that firemen have already called off all rescue attempts.

Yeah, and people who have done it and survived are heroes, but this is more common in movies than real life. Most are additional victims tho.

How would someone consciously make the decision to abort a rescue attempt at 200+ (presumably of a friend) for fear of their own certain demise.

A discussion and a decision to be made before the dive really. Something like "Problems are possible of course, but let's agree: in no event will either of us abandon safe ascent and exit plan even if they other may not survive such. Want to call the dive off now?"

If death due to a rapid decent from 200+ is not eminent than my question is moot.

I am not educated on how many rapid ascents have been made from 200 ft and the typical survival rate of those, and the details would vary by cases significantly, but I think our assumption is that - yeah it is.

I kinds suspect that "it won't happen to us" was too much in play here.

 

[David_57]

Yes I am baffled why a sudden accent would be required due to an air leak and blow of all the safety stops and deco obligations if any. In the case where I have a leaking 1st stage or 2nd stage cannot fix it I would isolate switch regs if required and shut down the leaking 1st or 2nd stage (standard valve drill) cut the dive and ascend as my dive plan requires added to this I would assume the diver would have a the very least a 40 cuft deco bottle attached to his rig? This is regarding the survivors statement.

 

[TSandM]

Is it clear, though, that any of these divers had had formal training in staged decompression diving?

 

[David_57]

Not sure about formal training but saw some pictures of them on previous dives they certainly had the equipment doubles, travel gas looked like 80cuft, and a deco bottle looked like a 40cuft, added to this they were apparently very experienced and had dove at this particular quarry many times.

 

[Rick Murchison]

A discussion and a decision to be made before the dive really.

Absolutely correct. Plan the dive; dive the plan.

... I am not educated on how many rapid ascents have been made from 200 ft

Thousands... maybe tens of thousands. The 200 ft bounce on a single 72 was a rite of passage for gulf spearos in the late 60's/early 70's; I suspect it was a rite of passage for macho divers elsewhere as well.
Think of all the record seekers in the free-dive world who do those bag assisted ascents from even deeper. It isn't the depth so much as the deco obligation. A bounce to 200' is no big deal... a five minute bottom time on air, for example, incurs ONE minute of deco at 10' on the Navy tables (ONE minute at 20' on the new Navy tables). You can get yourself into much more trouble with a rapid direct ascent after an hour at 90 feet than after a few minutes at 200. But, at 200' the deco obligation builds fast - if you have, say, 20 minutes at 200' on air then a direct ascent is blowing off an hour of deco (new Navy tables)!
Rick

 

[David_57]

I could not imagine doing a bounce dive to 200ft with a 72cuft bottle in my opinion reckless diving for sure and asking for trouble. Don't think that was the case here as like I previously mentioned, on one of the news reports which showed the 2 deceased divers they had all the equipment to take on a 200ft dive in a safe manor.

 

[A&I Mod]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

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[DandyDon]

Thousands... maybe tens of thousands. The 200 ft bounce on a single 72 was a rite of passage for gulf spearos in the late 60's/early 70's; I suspect it was a rite of passage for macho divers elsewhere as well.

I don't want to interject much from my worst screw ups into this discussion as I don't want to sidetrack it, but I don't think a 200 ft bounce requires a rapid ascent. I've always been an air hog, but once years ago (stupid, don't get off on this, just to support a point) I did a slow descent to 180, finally ignored my narc enough to ascend, did a slow ascent, then continued the dive with air left - never touching my pony. Just saying that a slow descent and ascent from that range can be done by a diver, stupid as it is to do so.

Panicked, rapid ascents, like with an unconscious buddy, would be much more dangerous. The only way I could judge an accelerated ascent rate while doing what I could otherwise would be from my older computer that alarms me when I exceeds 60 ft/min ascent so I think I would repeatedly set it off in my haste, but slow enough to stop the alarm repeatedly.

I suspect that the deceased diver without a hear attack may have ascended faster and that is the published (albeit unofficial) cause of death.