Tulum - what training should I get?

[TSandM]

Because they were run that way, and because the caverns used for tours are selected for not being fragile.

 

[boulderjohn]

So Standard is the wrong word, but you're trying to tell me that an OPEN WATER diver is a-okay to exceed the OPEN WATER environment they were trained in?
Of course there are no scuba police, so PADI can't stop you from doing things. That's why it's a suggestion, not because they condone it.

We first have to get past the notion that there are standards being broken by these dives. There aren't any.

So what does that leave us? Anything goes?

No!

Some people are only capable of thinking in extremes. The fallacy involved with that is called by many names, one of which is "false dilemma." People who commit that fallacy assume there are only two possible choices in a situation, both of which are extremes. Some people have even argued that there are people who are mentally incapable of thinking in anything other than extremes of right and wrong, black and white, good and evil, etc. I actually believe such people exist, but I hope they are not active in this thread.

Despite some rantings you may encounter, saying there is no standard prohibiting recreational divers from entering overheads does not mean therefore that recreational divers should be encouraged to go barreling into Twin Cave in Marianna, Florida. Understanding that there is no standard against overheads allows us to find that important middle ground, which is providing sane and reasonable education about the different levels of challenge and danger in different kinds of overheads. It allows us to teach divers that the four foot arch they swam through in Cozumel might be OK for their level of ability, but as things get more challenging, they will need more training, and it will show precisely why that training is needed. It allows us to show divers exactly why cave diving is not the same as cavern diving, which is not the same as simple lava tubes, which are not the same as short swim throughs.

PADI has recently approved such a course, called Understanding Overhead Environments. It teaches no skills and emphatically does not make students more prepared to dive more complex overheads. It is a purely academic course that describe the different levels of peril in different overheads so divers can understand why they can safely do some but can't do others without more training.

Before the course was designed, the concept was debated on a popular cave diving forum. There were some opposed, but the majority of comments were favorable. Some very prominent and even famous cave divers provided materials for the course. The final course outline was submitted to NSS-CDS, NACD, and TDI for comments and suggestions for improvement. No objections were raised.

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

First off my OW check out dives were done in Florida caverns Blue Grotto and Devils Den. Both are full of overhead environment. I spent the next many months diving those 2 and Paradise and many other spring water caverns. Was it safe????? Your call!!! I enjoyed it very much and would not change a thing.

Sure you can beat the horse over and over but in the end folks will dive what they want to dive. They will dive up to but not limited to what places will let them get away with.


To OP, it is always good to get more training but to me nothing beats more experience at a particular level.
Example: I would much rather dive with an OW diver with 85 dives then an PADI master diver with 50 dives.

 

[gearhound]

I'm not sure what we're arguing about here. But you do realize that on these tours you quite often see a bunch of snorkelers right above you. It seems weird that I wouldn't be able to go into an snorkelling area with my scuba gear.

 

[boulderjohn]

I'm not sure what we're arguing about here. But you do realize that on these tours you quite often see a bunch of snorkelers right above you. It seems weird that I wouldn't be able to go into an snorkelling area with my scuba gear.

I have used this example before. The hotel in which I have frequently stayed in Cozumel has a great snorkeling area off its shore. The wall has an arch a few feet below the surface. Many guests who snorkel there regularly, people who are beginning snorkelers at best, will struggle down and swim through that arch. Many divers will also rent a tank and do a checkout dive in the same area. The maximum depth is 11 feet. There are those who will state with emphasis that a diver with 1,100 lifetime logged dives (but no cave training) should refrain from going under that arch because it is so very, very unsafe for them because they don't know how to run lines, do a lost buddy search, find a lost line, avoid disturbing the non-existant silt, etc. Others will say, go ahead--take the risk. Just realize that going under that arch is a lot different from entering a cave.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Most snorkelers don't enter overhead, neither should the guests not qualified for said environment on SCUBA.

boulderjon will type up a page or two of minutia to tell you how it isn't a violation of standards or how he is right and then add a piss poor analogy in regards to speed limits that most folks are actually trained licensed and insured to do.

---------- Post added July 19th, 2014 at 09:41 PM ----------

There is no SCUBA police. There are people that seek appropriate training and then there are those that don't.

The hard pill to swallow are the dumbasses that advocate against common safety practices and are granted a measure of authority in the name of Moderator in a public forum.

 

[boulderjohn]

[/COLOR]There is no SCUBA police. There are people that seek appropriate training and then there are those that don't.

It would be nice if you could point out a single example of a time that I advocated not getting appropriate training. What is the appropriate training required to swim under the arch mentioned in post #55? Where should a diver with 1,100 lifetime dives seek out that training? What course should be requested?

The hard pill to swallow are the dumbasses that advocate against common safety practices and are granted a measure of authority in the name of Moderator in a public forum.

Being a moderator does not grant me one iota of authority.

It's certainly fortunate that name calling, insults, and wild suppositions are available to people who have neither facts nor logic on their side. Otherwise they would have nothing to say.

 

[scubastingray]

I'm not sure what we're arguing about here. But you do realize that on these tours you quite often see a bunch of snorkelers right above you. It seems weird that I wouldn't be able to go into an snorkelling area with my scuba gear.

I don't think we're talking about partially flooded caverns here, only passages that are now underwater. While there are surely freedivers that swim in, that's another can of worms I don't really want to get into.

If it is a cavern with a layer of breathable fresh air on the surface (a few feet of it anyway) it sounds like it isn't an overhead environment.

 

[karstdvr]

First off my OW check out dives were done in Florida caverns Blue Grotto and Devils Den. Both are full of overhead environment. I spent the next many months diving those 2 and Paradise and many other spring water caverns. Was it safe????? Your call!!! I enjoyed it very much and would not change a thing.

Your certification dives were held at these places,but did you enter the parts of the system that a direct ascent to the surface was prohibited? If so,then Boulderjohn may say that your instructor was in violation of standards. Pretty common for new divers to return to the places where they are certified,and pretty common to explore beyond the direct ascent area since there is very minimal to see there. There is a discussion on going in NFL,that maybe interpreted as "beating a horse to death",but private spring operators allow uncertified people in the overhead,and yes we have our number of fatalities at these places over this activity. Why be concerned? When an accident happens you will find the media doesn't call it open water divers go beyond their training level,it was a "CAVE DIVING ACCIDENT". These headlines limit our access. For example,two guys at School sink well exceed their training and die,and the widow sues. The organization that owns the place has been told by their attorney to close it while it is being litigated. Two people around Christmas died at Eagles Nest,and the media called them cave divers,although they only held OW certs. Came close to losing this place if it wasn't due to the efforts of others. I have negotiated access at quite a few sites,and two places I couldn't because they pointed to some accidents,and were concerned about liability. I hope you see where I am going here. OW divers entering the overhead,exceed training,and die,is considered a cave diving accident by the lay public,which can and will effect your access. I take it you are a fairly new cave diver with a TDI intro cert,so you may not have the history of seeing these problems,but I have been doing this 20 years (this coming Wednesday),and have seen us lose access to sites you could only dream about. One of the big central concerns by land owners is liability,and when we have an accident caused by exceeding training limits,then you and future cave divers pay for it,because I have seen these sites that we have lost,or the owner will not allow pulic access. You have a tacit responsibility to protect the sport for your own personal recreation.

I would much rather dive with an OW diver with 85 dives then an PADI master diver with 50 dives.

In the overhead I would rather dive with a brand new certified cavern diver than a course director with 1000's of dives who doesn't have overhead training,

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

It would be nice if you could point out a single example of a time that I advocated not getting appropriate training. What is the appropriate training required to swim under the arch mentioned in post #55? Where should a diver with 1,100 lifetime dives seek out that training? What course should be requested?
Being a moderator does not grant me one iota of authority.

Cavern is a good place to start.

It's certainly fortunate that name calling, insults, and wild suppositions are available to people who have neither facts nor logic on their side. Otherwise they would have nothing to say.

It does seem to snap you out of your weird little world long enough to realize that you sound as if you are advocating divers make dives exceeding their level of training. 1100 lifetime dives doesn't change anything.