Tulum - what training should I get?

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The "rules" they're following state that it's OK to go on a guided dive, and have been laid out quite well by Lynne. These guided dives are being done multiple times a day, every single day of the year. Could you point me to 3-5 fatalities in the last 10 years that I could use to justify saying these dives are unsafe? Assuming there are only 1,000 divers per year being guided (and I'd guess that's a conservative number-- only 2.7 divers a day), 5 deaths in the last 10 years would make for a fatality rate of 1/20th of a percent. Assuming 10 divers a day go on cenote tours now we're talking about 1/100th of a percent. Assuming 25 divers a day now we're down to 0.0054% fatality rate.


No, but some cave agencies do allow intro to cave divers to be guided at the full cave level by an instructor, or cavern divers guided at the intro level.

As part of their training...

---------- Post added July 20th, 2014 at 07:23 PM ----------

Funny how other disciplines don't sit as well when it comes to "guides".

---------- Post added July 20th, 2014 at 07:24 PM ----------

Justify breaches of training protocol anyway you want. There are no SCUBA police.
 
As part of their training...
Actually, North Florida cave instructors are advertising it as if you don't have to be enrolled in any training

Guided Dives
Because your guide is a fully-qualified Cave Instructor, it may also be possible for you to make guided dives that are “one level up” from your current level of certification. This is because the circumstances of your guided dive are essentially the same as if you had enrolled and were taking part in the next level of training.


But seriously, this is your chance to prove statistically, how unsafe this practice is. You could be saving lives by putting this information out there. Why not take advantage of it rather than make comments like "justify it however you'd like". :acclaim: Rules that you refer to were formed by statistics-- look at deep air, once accepted due to lack of any other option, it took collecting data to prove it was a bad idea, and even the strongest of opponents had to eventually admit that the data didn't support their decision to continue doing it...
 
Actually, North Florida cave instructors are advertising it as if you don't have to be enrolled in any training

Guided Dives



But seriously, this is your chance to prove statistically, how unsafe this practice is. You could be saving lives by putting this information out there. Why not take advantage of it rather than make comments like "justify it however you'd like". :acclaim:

Your link is specific to the NSSCDS mentoring program and doesn't advocate taking divers beyond their certification level with the caveat that they may be starting training and moving beyond their current level. The wording is vague but it isn't hard to read between the lines and just a cursory understanding of the program is needed to understand that.

Advocate trust me dives all you like, it won't make better divers or save lives.
 
Advocate trust me dives all you like, it won't make better divers or save lives.
Could you provide some statistics to help me better understand why you feel that guided cavern tours following the rules which are generally accepted in that region (Lynne stated them earlier in the thread) is unsafe? I'm trying to gain some perspective of your opinion, but you seem to only want to take cheap shots and avoid giving any examples of how you've based your opinion...
 
No mentor may guide or mentor you above your current level of certification. This means if you are certified at the Basic Cave level you still may not use the 1/3 rule for gas management and you still may not conduct jumps off of the mainline.

NSS-CDS Mentors/Guides | National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section

---------- Post added July 20th, 2014 at 07:37 PM ----------

Could you provide some statistics to help me better understand why you feel that guided cavern tours following the rules which are generally accepted in that region (Lynne stated them earlier in the thread) is unsafe? I'm trying to gain some perspective of your opinion, but you seem to only want to take cheap shots and avoid giving any examples of how you've based your opinion...

You aren't following the "rules" from the get go. No need to get much further than that.
 
I think it's frustrating seeing how Lynne's comments keep getting brushed over....... No one has died to my knowledge while following these rules.

Cave Diver's Forum - Cave Diving Resource
Here you go. The thread comments the guide was APSA,but someone acknowledges seeing violation of these rules frequently. One could say this happened because they left the limits of the dive per the APSA rules.

I have heard of other cavern tour accidents and incidents,but can't reference it.





While a death might close a site, I can almost guarantee you that banning cavern tours at some of these sites would close them as well, as that's most of the landowner's income, and what justifies having someone there to collect the money.

OW divers that go on these tours,yeah I can see them justifying this,because they enjoyed it,and they haven't received the training we have to understand the dangers of overhead. I hate to see cave divers on here condoning exceeding training.
 
Most cave and cavern diving standards are published. I don't feel obligate to justify them over a profit making venture.
 
No mentor may guide or mentor you above your current level of certification. This means if you are certified at the Basic Cave level you still may not use the 1/3 rule for gas management and you still may not conduct jumps off of the mainline.

NSS-CDS Mentors/Guides | National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section
OK, that's the NSS-CDS's rules. Could you let me know what factual basis you have for not agreeing with the rules which are accepted in Mexico?

Here's a link to the cavern guiding rules we keep referring to, that I'm trying to ask why you feel is unsafe. Scroll down to "THE CAVERN TOUR"
Cenotes of the Riviera Maya Home, 7 CAVERN DIVINGSteve Gerrard Cavern, Cave, Technical Instructor
[h=3]THE CAVERN TOUR[/h]Cavern tours are offered by qualified certified full cave divers who have earned a minimum Divemaster rating in the leadership structure. The purpose of these standards is to assist the growing needs of professional open water scuba instructors, who guide recreational divers into caverns found in north Florida, the
Bahamas and the Riviera Maya of Mexico´s Yucatan peninsula.

[h=4]LIMITATIONS:[/h]1. Natural daylight and an unobstructed ascent to the surface
2. Maximum linear distance from surface: 200 feet
3. Maximum depth: 100 feet
4. No restrictions
5. No decompression
6. Minimum visibility: 40 feet
7. Guide ratio: It is strictly 4:1 maximum.
8. Minimum psi/bar to begin cavern dive: 2000 psi/140 bar.
9. Minimum tank pressure to exit cavern zone: 1200 psi/80 bar or 20 cu. ft.
[h=4]GUIDE QUALIFICATIONS:[/h]Following two are required:
1. Certified full cave diver and
2. Certified as a qualified, certified Divemaster.
2. Recommend being an Open Water Instructor.
The Guide must use full cave gear configuration. Double tanks are required for air/gas management, handling of potential emergencies and as an example to potential students. No single tanks with dual outlet valve or side mount configurations are allowed to be used by the Guide.
[h=4]PROCEDURES:[/h]1. Detailed briefing before each dive
2. Explanation and review of rules for cavern diving
3. It is not necessary to go through extensive equipment modifications for the
cavern tour because it is considered a controlled experience. Minor
changes may be necessary, such as the addition of alternate air source,
removal of snorkel, and proper weighting.

4. Use of the guideline is essential to ensure a safe dive and demonstrate
proficient skills. It is recommended that the guide demonstrate proper
overhead protocol at all times.

5. No diver participation is mandated
6. Definitions:
a. speleogenesis and hydrology
b. cavern/cave environment (unique and fragile)
c. accident analysis
d. problems
7. Techniques
Brief review of:
a. buoyancy control
b. finning techniques
c. light use and signals
8. Review of basic communications
a. “OK”
b. “Stop or Hold”
c. “Dive is over, exit”
d. “Out of air”
e. Instructor’s choice for additional hand signals
9. Dive Plan
10. Complete post dive review:
A Guide should stress that divers on a tour are under supervision and in a controlled environment. Urge the divers to participate in a cavern course if they wish to pursue cavern diving.
1. Equipment:
Equipment is the same as for a cavern course. Standard open water scuba equipment with two battery powered lights

Cavern Tour Briefing Recommendations

It is recommended that critical aspects of the following outline be incorporated into the dive briefing for cavern touring.
I. This is a Cavern Tour NOT a “course”.
II. DEFINITIONS:
Cavern - Limits
1. Area with ceiling and some visible light from the sun
2. Large with no restrictions
3. Minimum visibility of 40 feet (12 meters)
4. Depth: Recommend 70 feet (23 meters) or less
5. Penetration: Maximum 200 linear feet (65 meters) from an opening
6. No decompression
Cave.
1. Beyond the sunlight zone
2. Extensive training is required: (A course takes a minimum of 7/8
days.)

3. Different equipment is necessary: (Double tanks, redundant
equipment)

III. ENVIRONMENT
Unique and fragile.
Dive gently.
Conservation.
1. Take nothing
2. No grabbing or pulling on speleothems
3. Try not to touch sediments
IV. GEOLOGY
The Yucatan peninsula is limestone rock.
1. Ancient sea bed
2. Sedimentary layered rock
3. Porous
4. Erosion from water forms the passageways
5. Speleothems form during dry periods (ice ages)
V. TECHNIQUES
Buoyancy and propulsion
1. Minimize weight (buoyancy check before the dive)
2. Neutral buoyancy
3. Gentle kicks from the knee and ankle, not the hip
Body positioning
1. Slight head down, feet up
2. Midwater positioning (stay off the bottom, away from the ceiling.)
VI. COMMUNICATIONS:
Light signals
1. OK: circle
2. Attention: wave light slowly side to side
3. Emergency/Assistance: rapid waving of the light
Hand signals
1. OK 4. Air status 2000 psi/1200 psi (140 bar/80
bar)

2. Stop/hold 5. Out of air
3. Turn the dive 6. Call the dive - Exit. (Any reason, anytime)
VII. ACCIDENT ANALYSIS
1. Training - if people have an interest in cavern diving it is
recommended they take a cavern course.

2. Guideline - continuous to the open water. Redundant reference
to the exit.

3. Air/Gas - 2000 psi (140 bar) to turn the dive. 1200 psi (80 bar) to exit the overhead environment.
4. Depth - maximum 70 feet (23 meters)
5. Light - minimum three lights: (Natural daylight and two battery
powered lights)

VIII. ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATIONS:
1. Equipment check, bubble check
2. No snorkel, no knives
3. Do not swim under the guideline
4. Halocline (some divesites)
a. saltwater is below the halocline, fresh water is above.
 
OK, that's the NSS-CDS's rules. Could you let me know what factual basis you have for not agreeing with the rules which are accepted in Mexico?

Here's a link to the cavern guiding rules we keep referring to, that I'm trying to ask why you feel is unsafe. Scroll down to "THE CAVERN TOUR"
Cenotes of the Riviera Maya Home, 7 CAVERN DIVINGSteve Gerrard Cavern, Cave, Technical Instructor

Wow! You are the first person I'm aware of trained through COTRMH7D Can you provide us their training curriculum?
 
Cave Diver's Forum - Cave Diving Resource
Here you go. The thread comments the guide was APSA,but someone acknowledges seeing violation of these rules frequently. One could say this happened because they left the limits of the dive per the APSA rules.

I have heard of other cavern tour accidents and incidents,but can't reference it.

OW divers that go on these tours,yeah I can see them justifying this,because they enjoyed it,and they haven't received the training we have to understand the dangers of overhead. I hate to see cave divers on here condoning exceeding training.
Yes, I think this is a great example of what happens when the rules for these guided dives are broken, and why they shouldn't be. Similar to the trained cave divers who have died by breaking rules which I posted earlier. I think you and I are in agreement that cavern tours shouldn't break the rules Lynne and I have been referring to. Maybe that's what's getting lost here-- that we're ONLY saying it's OK if it's done in accordance with those rules?

---------- Post added July 20th, 2014 at 06:49 PM ----------

Wow! You are the first person I'm aware of trained through COTRMH7D Can you provide us their training curriculum?
You've seriously never heard of anyone trained by Steve Gerrard? He's one of the best known NACD instructors.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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