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[Guy Alcala]

I know Ryan's wing is a 40lb Halcyon and with his PST HP100's, stainless DR plate, and a heavy V weight his rig is negative at the beginning of the dive. Gotta make darn sure it is clipped off if throwing it overboard, as it will be hanging from the tag line.

Yeah, one size doesn't fit all, but I've seen some pretty big guys using them.

It's quite nice to dive so probably worth checking to see it it will work for you.

I'm basing my calcs off Tobin's (DSS) post on TDS a while back. A few of my numbers are a bit different but the final result isn't significantly changed.
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Re: Formula for choosing wing lift.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aowdiver07
The 20 lbs. of lead I use with a single tank, on that discussion, I dive with a guy with the same gear configuration as me but different body configuration (leaner)and he only needs 8 lbs. of lead. Would this affect wing lift at all?

Any BC needs to meet two criteria:

1) Be able to float your rig at the surface with full bottles if you ditch it

2) Be able to compensate for the maximum change in buoyancy of your exposure suit.

A couple examples. I make some assumptions here because you did not provide any buoyancy info on your suit.

Single Tank Rig

I will assume that your Drysuit with minimum gas in it is about 24 lbs positive.
***This may not be the case. You should test your own suit***

Rig

SS plate and harness ~-6 lbs
Reg -2
Full HP 100 -11

Total with a full tank -19 lbs
Total with an empty tank ~-11 lbs

If your suit is +24 and the rig provides 11 of ballast with an empty tank you should need about 13 lbs of weight belt.

If you were to suffer a total failure of your suit, i.e. suit torn open, you could loose all 24 lbs of buoyancy, but no more than that. This is of course unlikely, but it is the worse case scenario.

24 > 19. That means you need a singles wing of greater than 24 lbs. Something in the 26 - 30 lbs range is a reasonable choice.

How buoyant would your suit need to be to require a 40 lbs wing, or a 60?


Doubles rig

SS plate and harness -6
Dual regs -5
Bands and manifold -5
2 x hp 100 full of air or nitrox -21
Can light -2

Total with full tanks -39
Total with empty tanks -23

You need to start the dive negative by the weight of your Backgas 2 x 100 = ~16 lbs of air or nitrox.

You should add another 2-3 lbs to allow for extra suit inflation, no shrink wrap at your shallow stop

That means to stay at the surface at the beginning of the dive with full tanks you will use about 16 + 3 = 19 lbs of the capacity of your wing.

You need in reserve enough capacity to deal with a total failure of your suit.

19 + 24 = 43 lbs.

Your rig will provide about 23 lbs of ballast with empty bottles, and you need 27. (24 lbs of suit buoyancy +3 for extra inflation)

If you add 4 lbs of ballast to your rig, for example a couple soft weight pouches between the wing and back plate, your rig will now be 43 lbs negative at the start of the dive.

Bingo! Suit + gas + 3 = 43 and your rig is 43 lbs negative.

You need a wing that's larger than 43 lbs. Something in the 49 -50 lb range is reasonable.

Imagine how buoyant your suit would need to be, and / or how much gas you would need to carry to require a 94 lbs wing.


You should ask your LDS to explain how, quantitatively, they arrived at their recommendation.


A couple final points.

Your "personal buoyancy" i.e. do you float or sink in your birthday suit, will impact your total weighting, but it does not impact the size of the wing.

Remember wings are used to COMPENSATE for things change in buoyancy, and your lipids or lack of lipids won't change as you descend.

You need a wing for singles and a different wing for doubles. Lots of goods reasons here including different capacity, different shape, and the likelyhood that you will use different exposure protection with singles vs doubles.

To test your dry suit:

Get a big bag o lead, put on your undies and suit and find some neck deep water.

Jump in and stand up. Vent all the gas you can from the suit. Remove lead from your bag until you just sink when you pick up your feet.

Weight the bag of lead. That represents the buoyancy of your suit with minimum gas in it. If you are of normal body mass Index you are done. If you are aren't add or subtract a few lbs as required.

If you do the test in fresh water and plan to dive in salt you need to add ~1 lbs for every 40 lbs of diver and gear. In this case is almost all diver.

Good luck,

Tobin
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Adding one or two deco/stage bottles to that would boost the lift required by 1-6 lb. at the start of the dive, to float me and my gear. MY DS is currently about 18 lb. positive with min. gas, which will increase by 4-6 lb. with thicker insulation judging from my experience trying a DUI Ultra 400 (and subsequent conversation with Dick Long of DUI). So, I'm looking at 22-24 lb. of lost suit buoyancy that I have to be able to offset if I suffer a major failure like a blown seal at the start of a dive, plus the negative buoyancy of my gear. A 40 lb. wing would be marginally adequate for me assuming no can light and no deco bottles, but leaves no room for growth.

Guy

 

[kathydee]

I'm basing my calcs off Tobin's (DSS) post on TDS a while back. A few of my numbers are a bit different but the final result isn't significantly changed.
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Adding one or two deco/stage bottles to that would boost the lift required by 1-6 lb. at the start of the dive, to float me and my gear. MY DS is currently about 18 lb. positive with min. gas, which will increase by 4-6 lb. with thicker insulation judging from my experience trying a DUI Ultra 400 (and subsequent conversation with Dick Long of DUI). So, I'm looking at 22-24 lb. of lost suit buoyancy that I have to be able to offset if I suffer a major failure like a blown seal at the start of a dive, plus the negative buoyancy of my gear. A 40 lb. wing would be marginally adequate for me assuming no can light and no deco bottles, but leaves no room for growth.
Guy

Yea, he did some eloquent math for me then recommended my first rig (which he estimated would span the gap between cold/warm water diving).

I ended up drinking swell in cold water & having to dive a 5mm in 85F water the entire summer with 0 ditachable weights . I now own 3 wings and 2 plates.

So at the end of the calculations, if you have the luxury, I think it still best to hop in the water and sample before you buy.

 

[Guy Alcala]

Yea, he did some eloquent math for me then recommended my first rig (which he estimated would span the gap between cold/warm water diving).

I ended up drinking serious swell in cold water & having to dive a 5mm in 85F water with 0 ditachable weights to get the weighting right . I now own 3 wings and 2 plates.

So at the end of the calculations, if you have the luxury, I think it still best to hop in the water and sample before you buy.

Oh, by all means. The trick is finding the right people to borrow the gear from so you can try it in the ocean instead of the pool. But I know you've already got that one figured out

Guy

 

[mikeguerrero]

All those numbers give you a rough idea where to start. I'm glad that I had the opportunity to meet with Rob and try out gear in the pool.

He exclusively via email, told me to bring as much equipment as I normally dive in Monterey, including my undies. I don't like putting on that heavy undergarment in a 85 degree pool, but it was well worth it. That is why I also pulled out the Batman light and shined it all over the pool, LOL...

I didn't want to spend more money on another plate, I thought my SS 6lb wing would do the job, but I was informed that an aluminum would be better for balancing my weight.

In the pool, Rob asked me several questions. How I felt in the head and in the legs, I told him every time I would tilt forward the rig would go there and vice versa.

He recommended that if I use an aluminum plate, I have more parts in my body to counteract the tendancy to tip, in other words, I'll be likely to not fight trim as much as I would with a SS plate.

I told him, I'm sold, he said, "I'm not a salesperson".... LOL I was just so excited that an experienced diver was in the water helping me out with weighting.

I'm also glad that I signed up for a mini doubles class with Don, my original Esstentials instructor, that class is this month and his advice along with what I took from Rob will be how my rig gets set up.

In the meantime, I now own two plates and feel I can use both, as I continue diving from singles to doubles with friends.

 

[Peter_C]

In the meantime, I now own two plates and feel I can use both, as I continue diving from singles to doubles with friends.

Welcome to my world. I have a Freedom Plate dedicated to singles and wound up trading my stainless plate plus more gear for a boat and getting an aluminum plate given to me. :cool2:

 

[mikeguerrero]

Peter,

Since going over to doubles, do you dive singles on a regular basis? I guess, what I'm getting at is, did your doubles push your singles over to the coner of the garage?

The only reason I ask, is that I'm slowly getting two sets of gear, I'm putting together some really nice gear for my doubles, I just don't want to pull apart hoses and plates to dive my singles, so I want two separate gears.

I'm hoping that the investment I did in my singles ends up diveable with all my diving friends.

So what's the pattern Peter, you dive doubles by day and singles by night? I've gotten a lot of use from the singles and don't want them to collect dust.

I can already tell that my doubles are scaring my poor little singles in the garage, what should I tell the singles tank and the lonely regulator?

Any encouraging words Peter?

 

[Peter_C]

My diving is different than yours for sure. We dive in two totally different areas, although lately I have been diving Monterey more.

In reality I prefer singles. There is something to be said for a lighter tank if you can call an HP100 or HP130 light (My 4 singles tanks. Diving the North Coast there are no fills for an entire long weekend so lots of tanks are needed. Plus there are no shops anywhere on the North Coast that fill nitrox period.). One of my HP130's just got an H valve and the other one will be getting one if I like it, since I already have half the valve assembly. Then again if you have to bring two tanks to a dive site anyway you might as well wear them on your back.

Some people chose to dive doubles for the cool factor. That is not my gig. After all everyone used to laugh at me in my worn out orange drysuit, so looking cool didn't apply. Much of my gear is worn pretty good even though it has plenty of life left in it. I am also one to de-emblemize most anything that I can. If the "H" emblem can come off, it does. Kathy says that is a statement in and of itself. *shrug*

North Coast diving I prefer singles unless we are scootering out to over 90 feet. Which is way the heck out into the ocean from shore. A couple of the dive sites are far from the car and the entries can be over slippery rocky terrain. Some of the beaches are much like Carmel River Beach with a steep exit. Pretty much all of them are diveable with doubles though. Carrying a scooter and doubles means I am carrying more than my own weight in gear.

Monterey and boat diving I prefer doubles but it also adds in some challenges. No changing tanks on a surface interval is a plus. Having to put them on is a royal pain. Even worse is getting my second fin on without taking out my chart plotter or falling in backwards. I've learned to make sure my drysuit valve is closed and wing is at least somewhat inflated before putting my fins on. That way if I do fall overboard it is not big deal. Much of that would not be a problem when diving from a charter boat.

Regulator swapping from singles to doubles is a royal pain. Only takes about 15 minutes though. I used to have two complete sets of gear. Unfortunately I used my second set as part of the trade for a boat. I do still have an Apeks DST first stage but need to get a 7' "H" branded 1/2" hose and a few other hoses to make it easy to swap back and forth between singles and doubles again. I don't mind swapping my second stages around as I do not tighten them more than hand tight. Having three first stages is the way to do it. Of course if you want a stage bottle in the future you will need another complete reg, which is what I used the DST for (I no longer have a second stage for it though).

With all that said, I am strictly in doubles trying to get ready for class. Once class is completed I will chose what tanks are best for the diving situation. Actually before I signed up for class I had been diving singles over the last year, except every once in a while at Lobos or on certain dives.

What do I recommend, quit diving and find a cheaper hobby! LOL NOT golf! Those clubs are bank.

 

[kathydee]

Oh, by all means. The trick is finding the right people to borrow the gear from so you can try it in the ocean instead of the pool. But I know you've already got that one figured out Guy

This community is incredibly helpful and generous ! Can't wait for you all to find out!!

Peter,


I can already tell that my doubles are scaring my poor little singles in the garage, what should I tell the singles tank and the lonely regulator?

Any encouraging words Peter?

Hi Mike,

So I'm not Peter. But as a novice doubles divers I started diving doubles around new years and just checked my singles tanks and the stickers have a 1/5 date. Since then I've done around 24 doubles dives.

I haven't assembled my singles reg yet and honestly am a bit lazy to swap hoses & bands. Otherwise I'd certainly dive singles in larger swell, perhaps as a third tank at night, in conditions that I'm not prepared for yet in doubles, and maybe even on a few shore dives with other singles divers.

But I am getting addicted to the extended BT time and love the redundancy so can't see swapping that often .

My new SPG is on order so soon enough I will assemble the reg and have singles as an option - guessing I'm gonna feel a little naked underwater without the gynormous tanks !

 

[TSandM]

Not NorCal, but my answer to the singles vs. doubles thread.

I have the luxury of having two complete setups, so there is no need to tear anything down or re-rig regulators. I dive singles for any dive where the entry and exit are dicey. We have a couple of sites where the access is a goat trail . . . singles there for me. I dive doubles for deeper dives, especially off boats, and I often dive them in sites where there is no earthly excuse for doing so, except that I want to do it to stay current with the equipment (practice reaching my valves) and I want the exercise of hauling the gear around.

I know a number of people who only have a doubles setup. If you're strong enough so that the additional weight and mass doesn't impede you from entries, and doesn't take any of the fun out of the experience, I think that's fine. It's a little difficult on some charter boats, though.

 

[mrbeast1414]

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