trolling. Or, applying new knowledge

[weekender]

But the same could be said for instructors. I had a run in with one just the other day. I had to fire him. Nice guy, lots of experience, but couldn't I couldn't depend on him. In my mind a terrible instructor.
Joe

but if you read my post you will see you are agreeing with me. my first sentence stated, "agencies train their instructors to teach the curriculum." a professionally trained instructor is trained how to teach the class. certainly there are going to be one off situations. nothing is 100%. i also respect that you can learn to dive or drive a dump truck from a friend. i learned to dive from a friend over 20yrs ago but don't recommend it to people as the best way.

 

[JustJoe]

Remember... ultimately YOU are responsible for your own safety. Your vision of "personal responsibility" will determine how much training you need for the dives you are doing. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not dive beyond your skill or training. There is nothing down there worth dying for.

Absolutely. I agree with this completely There is no reason to unduly put yourself at risk. Especially when with adequate training you can reduce the risk dramatically.

But the thread started because of my reading attacks (for the lack of a better word) on new people posting on the board about a particular dive that they just accomplished. This thread went a couple of different directions which is cool. As stated in the thread header I was trolling for reactions. And my predictions were born out.

Some people feel that formal training is the ONLY way to become qualified to expand your diving experience. Others feel that a slow methodical approach with increasing difficulty in diving is acceptable. Some feel that non-certified instructors work just as well as certified instructors.

For me personally, I would never attempt certain dives without training (fiormal or informal doesn't matter as long as the instructor knows his business). I was told by my dive buddy to do nitrox dives when I started diving again. "It is nothing, don't worry about it." Well I dove air until I could take the class. It was worth it to me to be sure. Could I have done the dives with my buddy on nitrox without a problem, probably. I didn't feel comfortable with the risk because I new nothing about enriched air.

On the other hand, after reading the nitrox book, the class did not bring any new information that I missed in the book. I understood the material completely. The class time was not wasted though because I still enjoyed myself, even though I didn't really learn anything new.

I'm now enrolled in an AOW class. I am reading the material. I have already read the book front to back and will do so again. Then I will reread the sections I am going to do for my dives. I have most of the experience already. I have dove beyond 70', alot. I have dove on wrecks that were rubble all the way to fully intact structure. I am familiar with navigation although I have never had to dive a pattern using a compass (go East for the ledge or when the reef splits take the West branch). This will be my first exposure to night diving (I'm pretty stoked and for this alone the class may be worth it). I haven't chosen my last dive but I think photography or ppb. This class is not about being able to make these dives for me, it is about having this c-card as a pre-requisite to the rescue class. I know I can make the dives safely.

I think I am going to write phoney dive reports to see if I get flamed for lack of training. THAT would be trolling.

Regards,
Joe

 

[OneBrightGator]

My question is how did advances in diving happen? How did cave diving come about? Who trained the first cave diver so he could dive in a cave, and how did they know what to teach him? How did we start using things like nitrox? I'm sure the gas mix was around long before the card was thought of.

Advances in diving came about the same way advances in any other field came about, through trial and error. The difference is if Ford makes a bad engine and it blows up during testing, they just try another one, no harm, no foul. If you try to learn how to dive deep, or in a cave, or even with something as simple as a drysuit and you mess up and that could be all you wrote.

Cave diving came about through the application of dry caving principles, some "common" sense but mostly from people dying (where the six points of accident analysis came from). The rules are established, they work when followed, why would you want to reinvent the wheel when it's been proven this is the best system.

New advances in diving are brought to the mainstream through extraordinary people, like Sheck Exley, personally, I ain't nowhere near the diver Sheck was, I'll leave the advancing to people like him.

 

[JustJoe]

but if you read my post you will see you are agreeing with me. my first sentence stated, "agencies train their instructors to teach the curriculum." a professionally trained instructor is trained how to teach the class. certainly there are going to be one off situations. nothing is 100%. i also respect that you can learn to dive or drive a dump truck from a friend. i learned to dive from a friend over 20yrs ago but don't recommend it to people as the best way.

Sorry. I did take it differently the first time I read it. I guess that is why I usually re-read things. I agree with you completely. Just because you are a certified instructor doesn't make you a good one. And, just because you are NOT certified to teach doesn't make you a bad instructor.

I don't have any dive buddies that I would trust to teach me new skills (or help me with my problem skills). It is kinda sad I guess and I am just an average diver. But I know they are out there.

Joe

 

[OneBrightGator]

One of the big problems this thread hints about is that agencies have lowered their expectations of instructors below divers expectations (at least those of us on SB).

I do believe proper formal training works, but I don't think it's the only way to learn, I would be all for a "test out" option, where a diver skips the training because he/she does not need it and can prove it through some thorough means of testing (in-water, on paper, however).

Whomever you learn from, make sure they're worth learning from.

 

[pennypue]

For those that attempt dives without instruction, education, and proper preparation (whether certified instructor instruction or not!) the Darwin principle may come in to play. Which is why an experienced buddy can teach you a lot, they haven't killed themselves yet.

But what makes a "certified" instructor any better than an experienced diver who can teach and pass on the proper knowledge?

Joe

Hmmmmm, and just how exactly do you know that an agency is "qualified" to certify an instructor????

Somewhere, somehow, down the line there's got to be some level of trust.

As a new diver I see a lot of enthusiastic divers like myself posting about their dives and getting slammed for them. You have to be VERY careful how you post to these boards. Many of the posters here will assume all sorts of things about the diver and their skills...ie. if you're new you must suck. The new diver gets flamed and thinks the poster is a jerk. I'm already tired of seeing it and will not post regarding any of my new accomplishments as a result.

That's my .01 (I'm the other .01)

 

[Lightning Fish]

But the thread started because of my reading attacks (for the lack of a better word) on new people posting on the board about a particular dive that they just accomplished. This thread went a couple of different directions which is cool. As stated in the thread header I was trolling for reactions. And my predictions were born out.

From reading several of these threads that you refer to, the problem isn't necessarily that they have exceeded their level of training and experience, it is how their training and experience were exceeded. If a diver's training is OW certification and their experience is limited to a maximum depth of 60 fsw, then they are greatly exceeding both training and experience by making a dive to 120 fsw. This scenario is reported quite often on scubaboard.

But, I would suggest that, being OW trained with a max depth of 60' and then making a dive to 70' (i.e., a 'small' increment in depth), is completely different and under the right circumstances with the right buddy, safe.

And for those that want to comment on equating depth with experience, translate the same into 100' of viz to 1' of viz, or no current and high current, calm seas and high surf, etc.

Bill

 

[OE2X]

In certain areas instruction vs. mentor is a better way to go.

Pro instruction reasons:
1. You need the c-card to progress to a higher level of training.
2. Convenience - the course is at the the right time and you don't want to burden your mentor.
3.Logical and thought out curriculum that doesn't leave out steps. Omissions of these steps may get you bent or killed.

Cons for instruction:
1. Courses are very simple ie. - boat diving, night diving, drift, photo, drysuit, bouyancy etc... These courses can easily be taught by someone with experience in these areas and not be a DM.
2. One on one with a mentor can be a far superior way to learn vs. being in a class with 10 others.
3. With a mentor you can continue to ask questions even when the "class" is over.
4. The mentor may have a vast amount of experience in certain areas that you are interested in learning. Given the chance I would take a class on photography from David Doublet long before I signed up for one at my LDS. This guy is one of the finest UW shooters in the world and may not be a PADI instructor. His instructor credentials don't mean a thing to me.
5. I would take a "class" in wreck diving from someone or a team who specialized in that and dove that way all the time. I would do so before signing up with your average DM at the local LDS. Now with that said if I found an instructor who's majority of dives were wrecks then sign me up. I would then seek out mentor in this area afterwards to hone my skills.

With any course you take, you will not graduate as an expert. A mentor is a good way to continue your learning and hone your new skills.

I think in my mind the criteria for choosing a mentor or instructor is based on their level of proficiency in whatever activity I'm looking to learn. The higher the skill level the more critical I become. As an example: I for one would feel very content learning how to set up my own air fill station and learn blending from someone like Uncle Pug. While I don't believe he has the credentials to teach me, the man does all is own fills and has for quite sometime now. His methods and technique are very exacting in all forms of his life. On the other hand I'll sit in on Grateful Divers Nitrox class in a few weeks. While I already have my c-card, it won't hurt to do a refresher from an excellent instructor. This is the convenience part.

Bottom line there is a place for both types of learning.

 

[TX101]

Exactly how many new dive skills are introduced in the PADI divemaster, assistant instructor and instructor classes?

I actually don't know for sure. But I have read on here that there are no new dive skills introduced - just the reinforcement of current skills (ie. demonstration qualiy mask clear) and some skills on how to teach.

So, whats the difference between a PADI Rescue diver mentoring someone who has done his own background research and a PADI instructor who is teaching someone the formal class materials? You could argue that the guy doing the class is doing it simply because of the card, where the guy getting mentored is doing it because of the experience transferred.

There's a balance. I think you need it done both ways (formal & informal instruction) the exact percentage of each depends on the student.

 

[The Chairman]

I can't answer for PADI...

However, for the NAUI Instructor Training Course

Demonstration Quality Skills are required before the ITC.
Rigorous aquatics skills test (timed, etc)
Accurate and extensive knowledge of diving academics are also tested.

But you learn...

How to teach (few really know how)
How to manage students in and out of the water
How to manage (reduce) risk to yourself as well as your students
How to manage problems, issues and accidents

It was the only class that has ever humiliated me. Only those who have not attempted it will ever trivialise it.