Treat every dive like a tech dive

[boulderjohn]

Ultimately an OOA diver will "take" the first breathing source they can get to ... regardless of which it happens to be. Whether that's the primary or secondary, I will never understand why any agency teaches that you allow the OOA person to make that choice, rather than the person who's donating. Regardless of which second you want them to have, if you hold it out where it will be the first one they see and reach, they will "take" it ... because it represents the air they want.

You are assuming you will always have that opportunity. In the cases I know involving the traditional octo steup, the divers did not know the person was OOA until the OOA diver was trying to grab the regulator. If that is what is happening, you don't have any opportunity to hold anything out for them to choose.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Actually, I was responding to the assertion that people will take the reg they were trained to take. I'm questioning the wisdom of such an approach ... whenever possible, that choice should be made by the donor rather than the OOA person ... in which case, they're going to take the one that's being held out there where they can see and reach it.

Of course, if you don't see them coming, the point is moot ... but if you're reasonably aware of what's going on around you that will tend to be the rare exception ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Actually, I was responding to the assertion that people will take the reg they were trained to take. I'm questioning the wisdom of such an approach ... whenever possible, that choice should be made by the donor rather than the OOA person ... in which case, they're going to take the one that's being held out there where they can see and reach it.

Of course, if you don't see them coming, the point is moot ... but if you're reasonably aware of what's going on around you that will tend to be the rare exception ...

Got it.

I am sure you are right--they will take a regulator that is offered to them, regardless of training. If, on the other hand, they just go for a regulator before one is offered, I do believe it is likely, but not guaranteed, they will go for the one they were initially trained to take.

Perhaps it is a good time to talk about the case where the donor has a conventional octo in the golden triangle setup and the OOA diver goes without warning for the primary regulator in the donor's mouth. Some instructors actually teach students to put their hand up to their mouths to fend off that attempt while they reach for their alternates to hand to that OOA diver. This is pure foolishness. If an OOA diver is sufficiently panicked while reaching for your primary, they are not gong to take kindly to your fending them off, and they are not going to be looking to see that you are reaching for your alternate. They are going to fight you for your primary instead, and I don't know about you, but the last thing I want to do is get in a fight with a panicked diver who is desperately trying to get air. If I am in such gear and the first time I know someone is OOA is when they are reaching for my primary, I will open my mouth so they can get it without taking my teeth with it, and I will take the alternate. We can sort things out later.

 

[uncfnp]

You are? In that case, he's using a yellow primary. At 0:23, she's got a yellow reg in her mouth.

That is "him" not her. You will notice that he is reaching out to her. At that time she is slightly higher in the water column. You see her legs.

 

[EFX]

Actually, I was responding to the assertion that people will take the reg they were trained to take. I'm questioning the wisdom of such an approach ... whenever possible, that choice should be made by the donor rather than the OOA person ... in which case, they're going to take the one that's being held out there where they can see and reach it.

Of course, if you don't see them coming, the point is moot ... but if you're reasonably aware of what's going on around you that will tend to be the rare exception ...

It may be a rare exception if the OOA diver is in front of you. In my experience when I'm leading, my buddy (not my regular) tends to always lag behind me. Even being aware, depending on the timing, I may not see him coming and grabbing my reg. I dive on a 7 ft primary/bungeed second and make it a point to tell my buddy before the dive which reg he will get. This is really important when my instabuddies are diving on traditional octo systems and may not know the primary donation method. To prevent possible misunderstandings I keep a black purge cover on my second -- I don't want the OOA diver grabing that reg since it is on a short hose. I need to evaluate uncfnp's idea of using a yellow cover for the primary.

 

[shoredivr]

BTW, people from BSAC are explaining their methods here, but the rest of you should know that their position on how to use alternate air systems that include the long hose and bungeed alternates is very, very much a minority position and has been severely criticized in past ScubaBoard threads. You are free to accept their advice if you wish, but do understand that it is not what the majority of long hose divers do by any means.

Thank you for so eloquently stating this. I was going to launch into a cut and paste event, including trying to locate in a British dive board the description of policy-making demonstration dive a few years ago in a quarry, where BSAC course directors were shown "how taking a long hose would trap the secondary". Except the people doing the demonstration had never been trained in the correct way to do an air share with a long hose. If I recall correctly from the British boards I was reading at the time many BSAC tech divers thought BSAC's "hog looping" standard was inappropriate and stemmed from misunderstanding of long hose air sharing at the higher ranks of the association.


But now I don't have to ;-)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It may be a rare exception if the OOA diver is in front of you. In my experience when I'm leading, my buddy (not my regular) tends to always lag behind me. Even being aware, depending on the timing, I may not see him coming and grabbing my reg. I dive on a 7 ft primary/bungeed second and make it a point to tell my buddy before the dive which reg he will get. This is really important when my instabuddies are diving on traditional octo systems and may not know the primary donation method. To prevent possible misunderstandings I keep a black purge cover on my second -- I don't want the OOA diver grabing that reg since it is on a short hose. I need to evaluate uncfnp's idea of using a yellow cover for the primary.

One could posit that this a legitimate argument against the "traditional" lead-follow method of diving with a buddy ... you can't maintain visual track of the follower. Far better to develop a diving style that helps you both maintain visual contact with your dive buddy. Awareness is an acquired skill ... whether it's maintaining an awareness of your dive buddy or your air supply. The former would help you better manage an OOA situation ... the latter would eliminate the need for managing one ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[kensuf]

The last time I checked, none of us can breathe water and we are all capable of drowning. And so I agree with the OP that every dive should be approached with the mindset that you are entering into a hostile environment, one in which you will need properly functioning life support equipment in order to survive.

BTW -- I don't consider myself a "tech diver," I'm just a diver and I try to approach every dive with the same attitude, preparation and mindset.

 

[CuzzA]

My only experience with being OOA was in OW class where the instructor shuts down your tank valve. Is this truly a realistic simulation of being OOA or would it be more abrupt? For example in the OOA simulation you could feel it was becoming harder to get air when you took that next breath, but you still got air. In a true OOA would it be more abrupt like you take a breath, exhale and then on your next breath you get nothing. If that is the case that could drastically change how the OOA scenario goes down. Since you exhaled and now can't get air I could see a diver becoming panicked and going for whatever they see. Buddy distance could be an issue too because the delayed time and CO2 accumulation would trigger that desperate urge to breath and again go for whatever reg they see first.

 

[KenGordon]

BTW, people from BSAC are explaining their methods here, but the rest of you should know that their position on how to use alternate air systems that include the long hose and bungeed alternates is very, very much a minority position and has been severely criticized in past ScubaBoard threads. You are free to accept their advice if you wish, but do understand that it is not what the majority of long hose divers do by any means.

I guess that 'people' means me.

I believe that the BSAC position is to dive as you are trained, only teach what you are qualified to teach and teach to the standards of the course.

I can see that that might be a minority position if typical instruction is to teach the 'traditional' way and then immediately turn round at the end of the course and say 'that was just for the course, really do it like this'.