Treat every dive like a tech dive

[NAM001]

For most I doubt that understanding is a factor when it comes to the environment. Look at it from their point of view. Its been there for how long??? It is tough and if it were that delicate it would be long gone, which it is not. Breaking off a momento can not be a problem because look what nature does to it and yet it revives. That may very well be true,, and one diver at a new site probably could not do any lasting harm. It is the frequently dove sites, where divers with with that attitude,,, that the combined effect of hundreds taking result in destruction that is faster than the healing. Todays generation is not a generation that knows or understands the word NO. They cant go to a concert with taking a t shirt home. They have no sense of value or consequence. The system does not work with their behavior and look how they have responded in the colleges. So very many are potato heads and go to college to kill time cause they cant get a job. It only takes so much exposure to that until they no longer think about anything but themselves. 90% of them are welfare kids, all living off the government dime. So with that, what part of their life gave them an appreciation for others or as my kindergarten report card had on it "respects the rights and property of others. Once they spend a decade in college becoming a more well rounded individuals and get that B- deploma and find out that everyone has one They then find out 2 things. The goverment wont carry them any more and that they are no better off than if they did the non college welfare path. Those that destroy nature are as bad as the tree huggers, they are just at opposite ends of the argument. Both are equally dangerous for the middle group of society who can enjoy the environment. If any more evidence is needed look at the attitude of college students about paying thier college bills. I want rewards and i don't want to invest in them. That attitude governs most everything they do. I understand that a large majority of divers are much more sensitive of the environment, likewise i understand probably 1 percent of OW card holders actually dive beyond the first year. And when they do the dive is about them and not what is around them. This is something that you and I can not fix. the charters perhaps with more screening on who they take out but that is counter productive to their bottom line and will probably not be that effective if they did.

Great points! I recognize a boot camp style wouldn't be for everyone. In fact, that's probably bad terminology. IMO, the basic open water class should be tougher. The way I understand it is it's designed for nearly everyone to pass. When in reality not everyone should.

Your point about the environment is a great one and hits home with me. One of my hobbies is reef tanks. I've grown a sps coral literally from a single polyp to a full colony over a couple years in my living room; to the point I have had to frag that coral many times and distribute it to others. It's a pretty rewarding feeling. To watch videos of divers busting up the natural reef makes me sick. Why are they doing this? For one, I don't think they understand how a reef works and the amount of time it takes for a coral to grow. People typically don't care about what they don't understand. Hell, they probably don't even realize it when they're doing it. And second, it's their attitude toward diving. They get certified and have just enough knowledge to not kill themselves and that's where it ends for some of them. Meanwhile, they should be trying to progess their skills not only to make them a safer diver, but so they aren't destroying life that took years to grow. You don't need to be a technical diver to develop enough skill to not kill life just by participating in a sport. You just need the dedication to try and be better. One of the biggest things I'm working on is buoyancy control. I've got my trim and depth control down pretty good and now I'm working on using my lungs to control my buoyancy. I imagine if I can perfect that and make quick changes to my profile that could mean the difference of busting up a 50 year coral to avoiding it.
.

 

[Edward3c]

Depends on the certification agency. Some agencies like PSAI, UTD and GUE teach 7 foot hose as a standard in all scenarios including open water. Some instructors with other agencies do so at their own initiative. I find myself inclined towards that too after I was made to do a series of drills that convinced me why short hose recreational set up may be a safety compromise. Not a huge one but still. I was asked to swim with my buddy a full length of the pool while he was breathing from my recreational length octo. The short length of the hose makes these swims a bit congested and difficult as you really have to swim very close to the other fellow. Even if you move a foot away from your buddy, your octo pops out of his mouth because those hose length is not enough. People dismiss this by saying that after the octo goes into your buddies mouth, you should not be swimming horizontally but going upwards. OK then lets try this drill going upwards and then let us do a safety stop and hover at 15 feet for 3 - 5 minutes. It is not as easy to do those when your buddy and your are supposed to be glued to each other. It can be done but it is still a dance. With 7 foot hose things become easier.

A couple of points.

According to my agency, BSAC, a combined DV/inflator is not considered suitable as an Alternate Source (AS) device - it's performance isn't good enough.

We used to use them in the early days of AS, but then everyone was taught Buddy Breathing (BB), so were familiar with primary donate. I had a situation where I ended up using my buddy's combined DV/inflator; I therefore had his buoyancy controls. I had a proper octopus by my next dive as no one was going to take my buoyancy controls.

When my buddy is on my SA I will have a positive hold of them, as taught in an OOG situation. Going to the surface we will be face to face so I can see their eyes which tells me a lot about their mental state. This position allows me to control their buoyancy, if required. A 7' hose is no advantage, that's the correct hose for cave/confined diving where divers are single file and primary donate is required. In an open water situation there is nothing to prevent the buddy doing secondary take; which BSAC teach.

In an OOG situation, we are going direct to the surface. No safety stops. (On a dive with planned deco I (and my buddy) will be carrying redundant AS with enough gas to complete any stops required.)

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

This is how I was taught to do air share in my OW class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi3heu2Ij64

Keep in mind that most agencies teach you to dive to 130 feet at the AOW level and the above is what you are supposed to be doing all the way from 130 feet to the surface when an out of air situations happens at those deeper depths. We are "trained" to blow our safety stops on the way up so that means one out of air situation and two people skipping safety stop as per procedure and then hoping that nothing bad happens.

It took a fair amount of time to unlearn the above two-man dance and do and an airshare this way. Notice the ease at which they are holding a stop while doing air share.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAoHvnsq_dc

Which version of ME would you like to have as your dive buddy in a recreational dive to 130 feet? The first ME or the second ME? In my journey as a diver I have been both videos. I would gladly go back to my shorter hose because that is what I would be offered by most people at rec level if I run out of gas. I am only dragging the longer hose to save the person who has purchased the short end of the stick for me in case I am dying

 

[Edward3c]

This is how I was taught to do air share in my OW class.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi3heu2Ij64


Keep in mind that most agencies teach you to dive to 130 feet at the AOW level and the above is what you are supposed to be doing all the way from 130 feet to the surface when an out of air situations happens at those deeper depths. We are "trained" to blow our safety stops on the way up so that means one out of air situation and two people skipping safety stop as per procedure and then hoping that nothing bad happens.

It took a fair amount of time to unlearn the above two-man dance and do and an airshare this way. Notice the ease at which they are holding a stop while doing air share.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Which version of ME would you like to have as your dive buddy in a recreational dive to 130 feet? The first ME or the second ME? In my journey as a diver I have been both videos. I would gladly go back to my shorter hose because that is what I would be offered by most people at rec level if I run out of gas. I am only dragging the longer hose to save the person who has purchased the short end of the stick for me in case I am dying

Neither.

I train divers to be neutrally buoyancy, not planted on the bottom. Therefore they become positively buoyancy as soon as they start the accent. That applies whether we're at 6 or 50m (the certification limit for a BSAC Advanced Diver).

Its a 'safety' stop not a mandatory stop - there is no penelty in missing them, and no harm in doing them.

The octopus comes from the left, not the right, therefore the right way up without any hose twisting.

In the second I would want positive contact, I'm not going to risk an OOG diver dragging me to the surface. In addition, I've seen a diver in that configuration bolt to the surface because they couldn't get to their secondary after the primary was taken from their mouth. If they'd been deeper than 6m it would have been a fatality.

 

[tursiops]

Keep in mind that most agencies teach you to dive to 130 feet at the AOW level

I think you meant 100 ft, not 130, although it doesn't matter for the purposes of your post.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

This is how I was taught to do air share in my OW class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi3heu2Ij64

Keep in mind that most agencies teach you to dive to 130 feet at the AOW level and the above is what you are supposed to be doing all the way from 130 feet to the surface when an out of air situations happens at those deeper depths. We are "trained" to blow our safety stops on the way up so that means one out of air situation and two people skipping safety stop as per procedure and then hoping that nothing bad happens.

It took a fair amount of time to unlearn the above two-man dance and do and an airshare this way. Notice the ease at which they are holding a stop while doing air share.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAoHvnsq_dc

Which version of ME would you like to have as your dive buddy in a recreational dive to 130 feet? The first ME or the second ME? In my journey as a diver I have been both videos. I would gladly go back to my shorter hose because that is what I would be offered by most people at rec level if I run out of gas. I am only dragging the longer hose to save the person who has purchased the short end of the stick for me in case I am dying

the first video is awesome. the guy has to do 3 cycles of oral inflation of his BC to get him off the bottom in 12 feet... Overweighting the diver to a considerable degree is how I view that video.

The second video was pretty funny, the donor is clipping off his spg rather than initiating an ascent...I don't know what they are teaching, but I am going to be getting the ascent started ASAP and clipping off an SPG and 50 million hand signals is probably not in the game plan either.

You comment about how great it would be to do a safety stop with a 7 ft hose and one diver at 15 and another a 20... That is ridiculous. I would want physical contact even with a long hose and the two divers ascend as a unit, not as two independent people.. Do they really teach that?

What happens when the OOA diver vents too much air and starts to sink and then he has to remove the regulator and attempt oral inflation... What happens if he gets distracted and the reg pops out of his mouth and he sinks?? With nothing to breathe and no way to inflate his BC?

If the guy over vents his BC, he is probably gonna crank the hell out of your long hose in attempt to stay up with the donor. Do you really want to give the victim the opportunity to rip a hose off your first stage? Is that what is taught? I'm serious.. You completely misunderstood how to use an AIR2, are you correct with your statement about how the divers are to ascend independently with a 7 ft long hose?

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

In the second I would want positive contact, I'm not going to risk an OOG diver dragging me to the surface. In addition, I've seen a diver in that configuration bolt to the surface because they couldn't get to their secondary after the primary was taken from their mouth. If they'd been deeper than 6m it would have been a fatality.

In the second video, you can have positive contact. In fact, the out of air drills that I was made to do in my Tec class involved swimming with the out of air diver while maintain contact with him.

I am not sure if I understand your last scenario though. In that gear configuration, we wear our back-up regulator under our chin in a bungee cord. If primary is snatched from the mouth then that is precisely what is supposed to happen. Your secondary is inches away under your chin unlike in the rec configuration where people clip it somewhere and forget where they clipped it. Also, students are made to drill the heck out of removing primary in their Basic-6 drills. Watch 00:33 in the video which is Drill 2 in the Basic 6. He will remove his primary and then replace it with an octo that is under his chin and the clip it. He will then unclip it do it all over again. This is meant to be done in neutral buoyancy where you cant go up and down for more than 6 inches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi3heu2Ij64

In order to get that level of buoyancy while doing these drills we have to go back from primary to secondary a million times during the training so losing the primary to a panic diver is never something that should cause a DIR diver or any Tec diver to bolt up to the surface in panic.



---------- Post added December 5th, 2015 at 11:52 PM ----------

You comment about how great it would be to do a safety stop with a 7 ft hose and one diver at 15 and another a 20... That is ridiculous. I would want physical contact even with a long hose and the two divers ascend as a unit, not as two independent people.. Do they really teach that?

Of course you would want physical contact. The purpose of a long hose is not to keep the out of air diver as far away as possible to avoid contact. That is not what it is for. The advantage is that a long hose enables you to swim side by side with an out of air diver with much ease than the regular length hose that you are presently teaching your students to carry. In a safety stop situation, if a buoyancy loss happens with either divers, the other diver would have to shoot a good 5 - 6 feet above you or below you before the reg pops out of his mouth. Additional hose length allows for all these scenarios to be accommodated.

 

[chillyinCanada]

That's should be all regular diving, not just tech diving.

it is rec diving!! That's the point.

 

[Edward3c]

… I am not sure if I understand your last scenario though. In that gear configuration, we wear our back-up regulator under our chin in a bungee cord. If primary is snatched from the mouth then that is precisely what is supposed to happen. Your secondary is inches away under your chin unlike in the rec configuration where people clip it somewhere and forget where they clipped it. Also, students are made to drill the heck out of removing primary in their Basic-6 drills. Watch 00:33 in the video which is Drill 2 in the Basic 6. He will remove his primary and then replace it with an octo that is under his chin and the clip it. He will then unclip it do it all over again. This is meant to be done in neutral buoyancy where you cant go up and down for more than 6 inches

Yes I know it’s all really easy in training and practise at the beginning of the dive. When a diver who hasn’t done the training and has just been shown during the buddy check just rips out your primary (that’s the only bit they will remember) and traps your secondary to your chest you will understand. You won’t be able to roll out of it as you buddy will have taken a positive hold on you.

There is nothing wrong in having your secondary on a bungie and having the OOG diver take the primary, it’s just the primary hose routing that can present an issue.

 

[CuzzA]

Personally I don't like the gear configuration in the first video. I agree with donating your primary. Although I was taught in OW class per PADI guidelines to give the OOA diver my octo, my instructor immediately told us right after this is not how that scenario typically goes down. Quote, "The OOA diver will most likely rip the reg from your mouth without warning and you better know where your octo is. Today it's clipped to your BC, tomorrow come in the shop and I'll show you how it should be done. On a necklace under your chin next to your mouth is the best place for it to be." Are PADI instructors not allowed to teach the necklace/primary donate configuration/method?

I do believe this gear configuration should become the standard across all agencies and AIR2 should also be thoroughly reviewed if someone wants to go that way. For a new diver who hasn't mastered buoyancy I don't think they should start diving with an AIR2 simply because they barely know how to operate an inflator at that point and the likelihood for a new diver to actually be OOA is much higher than an experienced diver. Nevertheless, basically the education of air sharing should be donate primary or expect primary to be taken and switch to octo on necklace or AIR2 if you choose to use one. Establish firm contact and end the dive.

The problem I have with the second "EDUCATIONAL" video is no contact. This is not illustrated. A diver watching that video may get the idea contact isn't important when it really is. Also the idea that you should be doing any swimming during an OOA emergency is a bad idea. You immediately begin your accent.

Here's a good example about how current and swimming completely ruined the outcome of this dive. Mary and Steven are dead.

Two Divers, No Air | Scuba Diving

The other problem I have with this second educational video is the conditions in which they were diving were dead calm. All of my ocean dives so far have had some sort of current and/or surge. Locked hand contact on each other's BC again insures no one gets away from each and buoyancy can be maintained on the accent. For new divers who have never experienced a current and trying to stick together without contact would likely be difficult and someone may end up with the short end of the stick.

---------- Post added December 6th, 2015 at 07:58 AM ----------

Here's a good example of why I think there needs to be some uniformity across agencies. Especially considering if it's a cattle boat dive, it may not be your buddy that needs assistance, but a complete stranger with no idea how your gear is configured.

https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/diving-incidents/Hogarthian_gear_freeflow#.VmQvdIE8KrU