traditional vs. bpw

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Don Janni:
Underwater this has a different effect. Especially if you are using trim weights of some sort, i.e. tank weights or if you've added weight to the plate itself. The adverse effect is exaggerated if your remaining free weights are worn on top of your back or on your sides.

When significant weight and sometimes all free weight is moved to the top side of ones back - Exactaly where it should not be - you become top heavy and unstable underwater.

Take the weight of the plate, any trim weights and that of a full tank and move it all to the top of ones back and you become top heavy and unstable in the water.

If all that weight were hanging from your chest - think of it as the kiel on a boat which stabilizes it - it would add stability and you would have better control.

Don

We might want that "keel" effect if we want a balance such that we're forced into a prone position. That's not what I'm after though. What I want is for the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy to be as close the the same spot as possible so there are little of no apposing forces to create torque on any axis. That way I'm balanced such that I can maintain any position I want to be in. If the tank is where most of the weight is then a wing that wraps around the tank is a good start. Other gear carried and our boddies and suits enter into it too of course.

IME, the absolute worst situation is to be overweighted with all the weight below the bc like a wet suit diver, deep enough to have his suit compressed and has all his weights on his hips. He inflates the bc to compensate for suit compression. The result is a drastic shift in where the buoyancy is centerd and a big time HEAD UP diver. A diver who's very well trimmed at 20 ft can sometimes be a real mess at 100 ft. That's why I don't dive deep in a heavy wet suit, if I have a choice, and if I do I take steps to even things out at depth. It's also the reason why I don't think single AL 80's make any sense for cold water diving. You just have to put that much more weight on the belt which is too far below the bc for many wet suit divers. While a front to back inbalance isn't the best situation it's not much of a problem in a horizontal diving position though it would make it hard to swim on your side or stay vertical. Who wants to do that anyway? Now there might be divers with issues that don't fall into this (like divers with really floaty behinds) but about 90% or more of the divers I see are head up/foot down. Part of it is a skill issue, part may be overweighting but the rest is built into the equipment configuration that they were sold on early in their diving (wet suit, AL tank bc on upper body and weights below). It might work fine in the tropics where suit compression isn't an issue but then you don't really need any bc at all. Around here those divers just leave a trail of silt everywhere they go and getting a plate on their back (which is under the bladder and up high) is a good step in the right direction for them. This concept of managing the centers of buoyancy and gravity to control trim is really pretty simple to understand and manage. They should really teach it to divers from the start. It would save so many divers so much trouble and clean up our waters so much that it would be the greatest thing since sliced bread. As it is most divers have to wait til their cave training to see a text that illustrates something that should be in every OW manual. Unfortunately it's all kept a big secret. That's why cave divers have such great trim...they read chapter 6 of the NACD text (I don't really remember which chapter it is, I made up the 6).

The keel effect you mention though is one of the things that many side mount divers really like. The tanks, lights and everything else are below the bc yet not much below making any position easy to maintain.
 
I did it. I got my first BC, and it's a BP/W. Brand new Halcyon eclipse. No more rental BC's for me. Now I just need an opportunity, any opportunity to test it. :05: I think I need a deeper bath tub.
 
NAVMED82:
I did it. I got my first BC, and it's a BP/W. Brand new Halcyon eclipse. No more rental BC's for me. Now I just need an opportunity, any opportunity to test it. :05: I think I need a deeper bath tub.

I made the switch to backplate and wings over a month ago after diving with a Jacket BC. I had tried the BP and wings before (rented them in Cozumel) and I LOVED the stability of the rig. Congrats on your new toy! The best part is that as your diving skills improve and try new ventures, you will never outgrow the BP. You can keept it as simply or as techie as the situation demands. Have fun
 
MikeFerrara:
Am I dreaming or did you and I have this discussion before?

We've probably had it before.


As I said in an earlier post...I think it was this thread...for me it's not just the bp/wing but the whole equipment configuration.

Sure, and this is why I'm accounting for the presence of the UW camera in my configuration.

As far as trim/balance or whatever, I can get my trim right with any bc I've ever used. Some are easier than others but I've made all of them work in that regard.

Same here, but with this one exception, which I can really only attribute to the absence of a trim weight pouch on the tank strap.

YMMV if its designer ever suspected that anyone would use their gear in the fashion that I'm using it, namely with what proably had been the world's most popular 35mm UW camera system, configured with the world's most popular scuba tank.


I'm not much of a photographer and my camera and housing is posative...I've seen divers use rigs that are very heavy or very buoyant and often they add weight or buoyancy to compensate. I don't know if yours is heavy enough to warrent it but if it is and you haven't you might want to try it. I had to retrieve a lost camera once and the thing was like lugging an anchor back.

UW photo is why I dive, so leaving the camera behind really isn't an option. Since I now have around $5K invested in the current rig, replacing it isn't exactly a short term option either. Presently, I've gotten my UW camera's weight down so that its now only 2-3lbs negative in the water. Yes, I have to adjust my BC lift when I put it down or hand it off during a dive.

I've throught about adding buoyancy to it to help make it more neutral, but the inexpensive methods to do this increases its weight in air as well as increase its drag in the water pretty significantly...clearly not a very good option.


I guess if a jacket solves it and fits the rest of your configuration your there but I'd rather keep my rig the way it is and work on the camera.

Sure. There's always more than one way to skin a cat, although my inexpensive options are getting pretty limited: I priced buoyant strobe arms last year - - and quickly found that it would be cheaper to replace the BC instead!

And since I had used this very camera for ~13 years with a Jacket BC without this problem, the most straightforward thing for me to do is to simply go back to how I was configured before...ie, with a Jacket.

I'm not saying that this is the solution for everyone - - I'm just getting a bit grumpy about how often pro-Wings people claim that its proverbially impossible for it to not be the best thing since sliced bread, and I am most definitely an exception, not a myth.

I probably should have a standing invitation for people making this claim to come visit me in NJ and I'll toss them in the pool with my gear & camera and videotape them :)


-hh
 
coach_izzy:
I made the switch...and I LOVED the stability of the rig.

There's another "stability" statement again.

Izzy - - by any chance, were you coming from a BC that lacked a hard backpack?


-hh
 
-hh:
Izzy - - by any chance, were you coming from a BC that lacked a hard backpack?-hh

My BC was the Aeris Atmos Sport, a jacket BC. It does have a hard plastic back pack, but only one cam band. In my opinion, money I wish I hadn't spent before. Oh well, live and learn. Very happy with my current set-up and never looking back.
 
I too, have been diving for many years but always used a vest bc and alway rented from the dive shops. I am now wanting to buy a bc and from the discussion guess I will get a bp/w although I have never used one. Can you give me names of bp/w's and companies that you have liked in terms of bp/w?
 
louis:
Can you give me names of bp/w's and companies that you have liked in terms of bp/w?

If your heart's set on a bp/w then I'll go along with Tobin and recommend Deep Sea Supply. It's high quality gear.
 
How about Halcyon Eclipse? I am strictly warm water recreational diver. Any recommendations about the Eclipse, before I drive 3 yrs to check it out at a dive store?
 

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