traditional vs. bpw

[LavaSurfer]

When I was looking at BP/W setups two years ago, I found that most came in at $500 by the time you got through all the little widgets to build a complete system.

In contrast, at LiesurePro right now, there's roughly a dozen different Jacket BCD's available for $200 or less, from (Dacor, Tusa, Mares, Genesis, Seasoft, SeaQuest, Sherwood, AquaLung, Cressi-Sub) nine different manufacturers.


-hh

My point exactly. They are not a cheap solution.
They may be better but not cheaper.

I have never tried a BP/W yet so I cannot judge. I am guessing I will like the setup.

 

[Halthron]

$250 for the Maximus BP/W. While it's not cheaper than all jacket BCs, it's cheaper than a large number of them. I know it's not a serious BP/W (that wing is rediculous) but it is a real BP/W.

The expense is what caused me to waffle for so long. I was unable to try one and didn't want to buy and not like it. Now that I've managed to try one, I like it enough to order one.

 

[Rick Inman]

HUH?
I've yet to see a lower cost BP/W setup than most vest BC's.

When I bought my bp/w, my LDS was trying to sell me a Scubapro Nighthawk, which was about $600.00. You can get this same BC at LeisurePro right now for $435.00 (LINK).

I bought my 45# Oxycheq wing for about 250.00 and my Fred T BP with all the hardware was about 150.00.

That's less.

 

[pipedope]

I didn't read every post in this thread but I assume that by 'traditional" BC you are refering to a jacket style BC.

When I started diving we used horsecollar BCs and the fancy ones had power inflators.
The first BC I owned was a horse collar with the fancy power inflator and a CO2 inflator for emergencies. WOW! what a great bit of gear that was! And it was at that time.
Before long, jacket style BCs became available and they were an imporvement from the horse collar. Mainly because of better trim, the horse collar wants to turn you face up just about all the time, good on the surface when you want to rest or have a problem but not so good underwater.

Now we have back inflate BCs and BP/W systems that are better than the jacket for better trim and also better streamlining.

There is no need to go back and do the "tradition" thing unless you want to dive vintage gear for the fun of it.

For the easiest and most comfortable sport diving the BP/W is likely to be your best choice.

 

[halocline]

Another low cost option for BP/W is the jet harness set up. It's a flat plate for singles only, but the plate, wing, straps, and a diverite 1 piece harness are less than $300 if I remember. The plate and wing are high quality, but there's no chance of using it for doubles.

Regarding the "turtling" effect of having weight on your back that Don Janni referred to, I have found this is absolutely not the case. First, in almost all situations there is some weight, often 6lbs or more, in pockets right where they'd be with a BC. Even without weights, the weight from the plate is spread out, firmly attached to your back, and underneath the wing that's the source of buoyancy. (And a less than full AL tank, if you're diving AL) Problems in trim and stability arise when the sources of positive and negative buoyancy are not located near each other, creating balance issues. The beauty of a steel plate with an AL80 and a wing sandwiched in between is that all the variables that affect buoyancy are right in the same area, very close to your lungs. I find it much easier to control than a standard BC/weight belt.

 

[Puffer Fish]

I didn't read every post in this thread but I assume that by 'traditional" BC you are refering to a jacket style BC.

When I started diving we used horsecollar BCs and the fancy ones had power inflators.
The first BC I owned was a horse collar with the fancy power inflator and a CO2 inflator for emergencies. WOW! what a great bit of gear that was! And it was at that time.
Before long, jacket style BCs became available and they were an imporvement from the horse collar. Mainly because of better trim, the horse collar wants to turn you face up just about all the time, good on the surface when you want to rest or have a problem but not so good underwater.

Now we have back inflate BCs and BP/W systems that are better than the jacket for better trim and also better streamlining.

There is no need to go back and do the "tradition" thing unless you want to dive vintage gear for the fun of it.

For the easiest and most comfortable sport diving the BP/W is likely to be your best choice.

You new guys just cannot seem to get over the horse collar vests, if you remember back then, there was no conversation about trim, most people were just happy not to have to blow air into your vest anymore. Actually, at the time you would have started diving, there were a few BP/W systems, just not like the stuff made today.

The starting point of this thread is to the point where my usual "there is a place for everything" goes to "if you understand what a BP/W will do for you and you want that, it is time to get one".

But like any piece of equipment, they vary in design and options, and rather than find the cheapest, look for what fits and works the best. (cost be damned).

A good one can last a lifetime of diving (or at least some part of it can, like the backplate)

My compliments to all the BP/W only guys for keeping this on a very professional level - well done.

 

[Quaff King]

When I bought my bp/w, my LDS was trying to sell me a Scubapro Nighthawk, which was about $600.00. You can get this same BC at LeisurePro right now for $435.00 (LINK).

I bought my 45# Oxycheq wing for about 250.00 and my Fred T BP with all the hardware was about 150.00.

That's less.

Hammerhead Backplate (with Sta) $99.99
Dive Rite Trek Wing $250.
Hammerhead Hog Rig 40.
Cam bands Leisure Pro 2 @20 40.
Total $430.
Ability to change rig from singles to doubles and configure any way you want:
Priceless

 

[-hh]

When I started diving we used horsecollar BCs and the fancy ones had power inflators.

Historically, both Horsecollars and Wings predated both power inflators and Jackets.

The wings were predominantly found in use by warmwater divers (especially female models), while coldwater diving generally stuck with the horsecollar a bit longer, before both were superceded by Jackets. Check out the advertisements in old copies of Skin Diver magazine ...circa 1985 and earlier...to see some examples.

There is no need to go back and do the "tradition" thing unless you want to dive vintage gear for the fun of it.

I wish I hadn't thrown out most of my old (now 'vintage') gear, as it is fun sometimes to pull out the "old stuff" for one reason or another. I actually went out and restored my DA-AquaMaster doublehose when I was seriously thinking about using it when doing close-in macro photography (fewer bubbles). Unfortunately, I never was able to find a banjo fitting to add an HP port so as to have an SPG. In any event, it has been still fun to take along on a trip and see what kind of reactions arise when I pull it out of my gear bag and start hooking it up. Too bad its only got a 2500psi yoke.


-hh

 

[espantoon]

I like simple things and BP/Ws are about as simple as you can get. PLus, they look bad***** and its a good conversation piece if there are any swedish girls on your liveaboard.

Decision made! HAHA

 

[MikeFerrara]

Either that, or there's some other factor that's been overlooked.

For example, my Wing "pushes me forward" on the surface because its rearward location is unable to counteract the torque that I'm creating because I'm holding a heavy UW camera in front of me.

My UW camera's around 2.5lbs negative, and since I hold it in front of me, when I'm vertical at the surface, this negative force on a ~1.5 foot long moment arm vs. my BC's lift centriod creates a "face down" torque. This hadn't been a problem for me when I was diving with a Jacket, because its buoyancy wasn't as far to the rear.

While ~4 lb-ft of torque doesn't sound like anything significant enough to be concerned about, when we're floating we don't have any hard fulcrum to resist this torque - we can only kick to delay its onset until we eventually tire out. If you've never had a 40 minute surface drift because the chase boat went the wrong way, consider yourself luckly...perhaps it also explains why I still carry a snorkel too.

For me personally, at this point there's one last trim configuration change I can make to my Wing to make it less unacceptable. If it doesn't work, I'll go back to a Jacket next year. If it does work, I'll probably use the wing for another ~5 years...and then go back to a Jacket. For me, its no longer a question of "if", but merely "when" I'm going to go back to a Jacket from a Wing.


-hh

Am I dreaming or did you and I have this discussion before?

As I said in an earlier post...I think it was this thread...for me it's not just the bp/wing but the whole equipment configuration. I prefer a Hogarthian like configuration for all my diving for lots of reasons that I also think I stated in this thread. I've never seen an integral bc, jacket of back inflate, that works as well in that overall configuration. As far as trim/balance or whatever, I can get my trim right with any bc I've ever used. Some are easier than others but I've made all of them work in that regard. If I wasn't so sold on a horgarthian configuration I'd probably be far less determined to dive nothing but a wing.

I'm not much of a photographer and my camera and housing is posative...maybe a little negative with the strobe but it's no big deal. I've seen divers use rigs that are very heavy or very buoyant and often they add weight or buoyancy to compensate. I don't know if yours is heavy enough to warrent it but if it is and you haven't you might want to try it. I had to retrieve a lost camera once and the thing was like lugging an anchor back. I guess if a jacket solves it and fits the rest of your configuration your there but I'd rather keep my rig the way it is and work on the camera. Also with my doubles full, I'm actually a bit heavy on the back and a couple pounds in a camera would be a help.